Hybrid Wankel: Y/N

Alright, look. I got a fucking question.

Mazda is going to build the RX9, so they've said. They are in no way going to build it with a hybrid power train, as they've also said.

But really, if there's any engine in the world that could benefit from hybrid assistance the most, wouldn't it be the wankel?

It would get that low-end torque people care so fucking much about, and have better "GREEN MEME" emissions being able to predominantly use electric power at low RPM, with the ability to go full Wanker at high RPM with the battery off.

Could it not work? As a side note, WHY THE FUCK DO WE CARE ABOUT CAR EMISSIONS WHEN THE VAST MAJORITY OF CARBON EMISSIONS ARE FROM INTESTINAL METHANOGENS IN COWS JESUS FUCK AAAAARGH

TL,dr: would it work?

no point for a thread because you will not buy the rx9 no matter what.

They should build cows with hybrid power trains

frig off randy bobandy

>rx9 should be a hybrid

said no one ever, except you

Daily reminder that never_ever.jpeg

If nothing else, a hybrid goes against Mazda's entire design/engineering philosophy. They don't even want to put hybrids in their economy/commuter bikes (aside from their Japanese-only Toyota collaborations which are literally Mazdas with licensed Prius drivetrains), or even CVTs, since they value driving dynamics and lightness (both for performance and empeegees) so highly. Look at how they built the ND, they focused on light weight and handling, rather than muh torks. A hybrid would be too heavy and not be a FUN car, and at the core of it, Mazda wants to make FUN cars.

Battery weight. Do it like that new bimmer turbo straight six and we'll talk. Electric motor on the driveshaft, electrically driven accessories, hybrid turbo.

An electric motor wouldn't match the smooth power delivery of a rotary.

Hybrids have jackshit stopping them from being fun cars. They just have to be designed for it. A hybrid that only makes as much empeegees as a regular N/A is going to be sending a lot of juice to the wheels.

Again see the new bimmer I6 for how it should be done.

That was merc

I'd rather they develop hydrogen powered rotaries, so we can have ICE zero-emission cars in the future.

>muh power density

Good excuse to have large displacement quadrotors amirite?

You can match the power curve exactly in software, how is this a concern? You'd be using it in tandem anyway. Not direct electric drive.

The wankel is the ideal engine for an EV range extender because it can be ran at max RPM with peripheral ports the entire time it's running, just like it was always meant to do. Plus, the computer can handle warmup/cooldown and you don't have to worry about when and how you start it up or shut it down.

>Hybrids have jackshit stopping them from being fun cars.
HEAVY
E
A
V
Y
All Mazdas are the lightest/almost the lightest in their class. One of the main advantages of the RX-7/MX-5 has always been light weight.

>wankel
All electric would be more reliable and would actually have torque

I'll give you that much. I'd like to see how much battery weight the merc system shaves by not being the entire drivetrain.

As if. You realize unless you're trying to build a full battery powered car, hybrid the batteries won't weigh much.

These two have the right of it.

How big and heavy does a battery need to be to provide a bit of power exiting a corner before regenerative braking tops it back up? It would only need to have enough juice for a few launches and hard accelerations to be sufficient.

waste of R&D
>car made for enthusiasts
>cuck it

also

>WHY DO WE CARE?
because consumers don't NEED performance cars. they're convenient and cool but not necessary when, by law, an american will rarely exceed 70mph. business pays a lot of taxes and is responsible for, uh, society, so they get a free pass until shit gets real. which is usually when shit is irreversibly bad, but eh. what are you going to do, ban lobbying?

I think having a system similar to the CRZ would be good.

The tiny electromotor on the CRZ only helps with low-end acceleration and torque, but it's issue is thst it's literally bolted on to a FIT MOTOR (read: complete shit)
The wankel typically delivers fantastic, smooth high end power and a bolt on battery wouldn't weigh too much and would make the car that much more zippy at the low end.
Plus, emissions bullshit would be a bonus.

Mazda will never do it because they hate HVs and I respect that, plus it's a pride thing - they respect the wankel and want it to succeed on its own, no add-on bullshit necessary. And thank GOD for that.

The only actual flaw it has is that it came too much later for people to develop for it. Poor emissions? What, like piston engines have ALWAYS been as "green" as they are now? No, it took a century of refinement and competition to be where they are.

What's amazing is that the Wankel has managed to compete with only one company in the entire world refining it and all that shit.

Hey, I have a question. I have heard that Wankel are supposed to be revved high to clean out the engine, and it doesn't really hurt the engine at all compared to piston engines, but where are you supposed to keep the RPM's when driving comfortably? High or low?

it could work but the hard part with performance hybrid powertrains is always getting the feel right, and that's tough

I don't claim to know very much about wankel engines, but what I do understand is they are most reliable when power changes aren't made frequently. This is one of the reasons their reliability track record has been so much better in aviation than it has been in the automotive industry. I would think a hybrid wankel would be even less reliable due to all the starts and stops.

Low if you wanna save MPGs and the engine itself. Wankels are rev happy but constant high revs won't make it last a long time. You'd drive it like you drive any other car, except what you said, you do have to redline it every once in a while to get rid of carbon deposits.

Whoops, meant to quote

The magic of rotaries is that they don't actually give a fuck how high you rev them. The Italian tuneup bullshit is just a meme and not necessary for the upkeep of the car, but as long as you let it warm up and cool down properly, it won't really care whether you're cruising at 3000 RPM or 7000.

So, uh, how do you get better or worse mpgs? What decides that?

I'd like it if they had two versions, one with just a dorito that was cheaper (like maybe STi/Mustang GT/etc price bracket) and an all-out balls to the wall "this is the most technologically advanced and absolute fastest car we can mass produce" version with said hybrid/rotary drivetrain. Something like base corvette vs zr1.

By driving a piston engine. Memes aside, the way to drive any car for the best fuel economy possible is to aim for maximum vacuum. If you don't have a boost gauge, use a light foot and cruise in fifth as slow as you can without lugging the engine or impeding traffic.

Best option desu famalama

Do basically the exact same as driving a piston engine the most efficient to maximise mpgs, the least fun was possible

I've heard they benefit more at higher RPMs but that's completely fucking retarded so I didn't believe it.

The problem is that the hybrid version probably wouldn't actually be faster. Case in point: super advanced hybrid supercar NSX vs redneck mobile with fat tires Camaro ZL1.

I'm not into the whole hybrid thing, but it'd be fucking great if it came peripherally ported from the factory.

Of course it won't happen, but it'd be cool as fuck.

My rx7 gets better mpg at 5000 rpm than it does at 2500. I have no idea why but it does

N to hybrid
N to wankel
Just accept that wankel is dead. It has inherently poor fuel economy and emissions, it's not coming back, and you lose EVERY SINGLE BENEFIT wankel provides with hybrid SHIT.

Why is a wankel good?
>lots of power from a small package
>very light
Now you make the car a hybrid and it's automatically pigfat as fuck. Good job. Should've just put a 3 cylinder engine which makes less emissions in it like BMW did.

Clearly you've been blessed

Are you absolutely sure that it does? What's the typical mpg for 5000 vs 2500?

>implying you've done back to back load testing at 2500 and 5000rpm respectively and determined that you're getting better economy
Protip: You're cruising at 5,000rpm on the highway, that's why you're getting better mileage there than when you're at 2,500rpm then slowing down and speeding up constantly on regular roads.

Make's sense.

No exponential parasitic drag from the valvetrain or pistons on their bores. All the engine ports are in their optimal range for best volumetric efficiency. Compression is at its maximum - there's less time for blowby or for fresh mixture to fart out the exhaust.

AWD is for benchracers who cant admit that can burgers can compete.

Yeah... I'm sure their engineers know this as well but they've decided not to do it "BECAUSE!!!!"

They don't want people to say that it's only a good car because of the electric motor. That it's really an electric car and the wankel is just a generator and shit.
They want to make the last great naturally aspirated rotary car before regulations in 2025 mean they can't.
After proving they can make a cost effective world-beater (hopefully) on pure rotary power alone, then they can make a hybrid one without reviewers claiming excuses.


STILL, I wish they put like a little ~50lb-ft, ~25hp electric motor on it with a 48v system and hybrid electric turbo.
Can replace the alternator and a lot of belt driven accessories, allowing for better packaging, and a way to recover energy for the turbo and from the turbo to use to spool the turbo faster and torque fill.

Like who could claim it's just the little 25hp electric motor in a mild hybrid that's doing all the work and it's not the pairing of the two together? That's a stupid claim.

A mild-hybrid isn't necessarily noticeably heavier than a non-hybrid due to much of the added weight saving weight else where (like the lack of an alternator).
It's like the difference of a full tank of gas vs half a tank in weight. And not having to place all the accessories on the front of the engine improves weight balance.

And electric has less torque at higher RPM while a wankel has more.
To spin an electric motor faster for a given size, you have to reduce its torque.

The other advantage to going hybrid is they can tune the port sizes to rev to 10,000rpm and make power there since it wouldn't have to worry about power from 800-1500rpm when there's an electric motor to get it off the line.

Really, a rotary CAN make torque off idle. It means narrow ports with long headers which choke it. But everyone should understand that, it's the same idea with valve timings in piston engines and I shouldn't need to mention it while people are caught up in "lol no torque" while rotaries are simply engineered to make power at high RPMs because they can actually spin that high reliably.

If it's more than 2,900 lbs it can fuck off.

You think the company that made the 2300lb Miata and 3300lb SUV are going to have trouble keeping it around 2800lb?

I don't think Mazda would have a problem with a hybrid turbo, it doesn't feel like "cheating" in the same way a hybrid drivetrain does and would add minimal weight. I do think a mild hybrid would make for a better car but Mazda is nothing if not purists when it comes to their sports cars and that's a respectable thing in today's automotive industry.

On a related note you can recover energy in a hybrid turbo with the turbo itself by having it act as a generator above a certain boost threshold which lets you limit the wastegate to an emergency venting system in the event of turbo motor failure so a mild hybrid drivetrain isn't necessary for a hybrid turbo system.

It's stupid to use a hybrid electric turbo without also having an electric motor for regenerative breaking, start/stop, and replacing the 12v system with a lighter 48v system.

Why the hell would you have a cap and electric motor/generator on the turbo when you're still going to use lead acid and a 12v system and have converters to go from 12v to 48v and back? It's extremely dumb and replacing the starter motor and alternator with a slightly larger electric motor doesn't really add any weight or would really save weight over that stupid shit.

I wasn't saying it was a good idea, just that it was possible.

it will probably be like $150k anyway so who gives a fuck

Why does it matter, you won't be able to afford it.

I'm not talking the RX9, that's going to be Pure Dorito and I appreciate that.

I was just asking about the KKM wankel in general - it just seems like a simple hybrid IMA-like system would benefit it more than any other engine.

Rotaries are the worst engine type ever made OP. Nothing can be done to make them viable for any kind of use.

reminder

never really understood what the point of this image was supposed to be

You have to be pretty dumb to not get it. What's the point of explaining things to someone so stupid?