HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts)

Have some pity here sword guys were driven off the shitpool known as /asp/

Since most of this board is religious shit posting perhaps we can have a swords general? it wouldn't take up much space or get in the way of the debate over which church is the one true faith

Here take a look at this:

youtube.com/watch?v=bH8auVrYL3M

Looks like they're practicing cosplay for their next convention.

>perhaps we can have a swords general? it wouldn't take up much space or get in the way of the debate over which church is the one true faith

Which sword style is the best sword style?

Hema is fun i do it at my local club

Matt Easton disagrees about thrusts being "faster" as said in that video in the OP:
youtube.com/watch?v=9NkTAFrTOW0

Though you could say perhaps that a cut often needs a larger and thus slower motion from the hand than a thrust, because the latter can penetrate more easily.

Thrusts need less force to be parried and can be parried even with an open hand, however they are also basically impossible to parry with a static block (except with a shield). These are also important pros and cons of a thrust not mentioned in Skallagrim's video.

Ugh I hate skall. He's just so fucking cringe and his bitch is a troll

Matt is the ultimate authority on swords in youtube. The chubby autist skall can suck a fat one.

youtube.com/watch?v=tkVK3E7XCL0

However, a lot of times, thrusts takes less time to reach their target than cuts, making them quicker, but not necessarily faster.
That's why they are very effective counter-strikes (cf stop-thrusts), you can start after the opponent's cut but still arrive before his/her cut with a thrust. As Di Grassi, there are are moments were a cut is faster, but you should absolutely know when this is and know how to use them here (reverse cut while recovering for instance).

In the end, even if you use one more than the other, they both have their uses and that's all that matter really.

I think he is not denying that thrust can reach its target quicker than a cut or vice versa. He is denying that a thrust is faster when in reality it has more to do with the stance before thrust takes place, so it's not so much the speed of thrust or cut but rather from which stance you give edge or point.

Europe's hopeless LARPy attempt to have eastern-martial-arts-level preservation.

I've seen the video you know and it's what I've been saying really.
His point about stance is spot on, but then if we take two common stance, terza for thrusting and vom tag for a cut, the tip of your sword while in terza is much closer to the enemy than the weak of the blade is while in vom tag (or pretty much any other dedicated cutting guard), which makes the thrust quicker (takes less time to arrive) than the cut even if both moves are performed at the same speed by the practitioner. Since time is distance/speed, if the speed is the same, the shorter distance means a shorter time, that's all.
The fact that in all of the usual thrusting guards, the point is forward closer to the enemy (stretta according to Viggiani) compared to the cutting guards that usually have their striking area retracted and therefore a bit further away (not dramatic but it's there), it's just pure physics that the thrust is quicker (but not necessarily faster) than the cut.

Now obviously, there's much much more to an attack than its quickness, quick alone doesn't make it better at all, there is a place for a cut and a place for a thrust. Just as some guards are useful in certain context and bad in others, and since guards devolve into particular strikes, sometimes cuts are better than thrusts at that moment even if they would take more time to arrive to the target.

Besides, what also matters is understanding tempo and measure, having great speed and quickness with your blows but not being able to adjust measure and knowing when to strike is useless. The same applies to which guards in which situation.

Yes but you rarely give edge or point from guard. Often you have to riposte, a common riposte to recover from opponent giving you point is an overhead cut for example. A counter example would be putting the tip with longsword after a parry into guard position with hands overhead while sword points forward, you cannot easily thrust onward from this position but it stops the advance of the opponent by threatening with a short thrust.

It's true that in thrust guards the point is closer to opponent thus easier to give but that's only a small portion of the combat.

Well if someone as to parry or riposte, it means the other is attacking, and the logic would be the attack comes from a guard, so at least one person out of the two is thrusting or cutting from a guard...

If you are in terza and gain the enemy's in the inside, you "just" have to advance and thrust, it's doubtful that you'll be able to do so without opposition, but done correctly, it's still possible to position yourself and constrain the opponent's blade so that what you do is basically staying in terza and then extending the guard into a thrust.

According to Viggiani at least whenever you don't strike you're at rest in a guard, when you strike your attack ends in another guard, that's up to you that those starting and ending points are sensible and thoughtful (you thrust from Prima to quarta for instance). So in fact, if at some points you aren't in a sensible guard, but you aren't striking, you are in a dire situation.

Funnily it's exactly the same in a lot of japanese styles (yin/yang, staying in guard/striking).

Again I did not deny it, you rest at guard at all times if not striking and other side must be advancing for you to be either parry or riposte. Isn't that when the speed of thrust or cut matters most however, in counter attack? Because in advance it does not matter, as you are limited more by your leg movement than your hand movement. You can probably get your cut or thrust into position as you make either a short step or long step.

My argument is that speed of cut and thrust is depended on your stance before the counter attack, which is depended on the opponent's advance because you will strike from parry or you will riposte rather than turn back to guard more often not and if you are the one advancing you are limited by the speed of your body more than speed of your hand.

Also I should say I am mostly talking about sabre fencing in which the common guard is a thrust guard and advance is often done with step and point while riposte or counter-attack can go either way. I don't know much about longsword or any other sword.

>unironically watching skallacuck

Hema is alright but it attracts a lot of video game nerds

>There is nothing historical about a bunch hit each other clumsily in armour.
>HEMA guys fight according to manuals and treatises written by fencing masters

I know which one sounds more appealing

>I don't know where you got suck conclusion

all the fat guys in HEMA videos?

this

>HEMA
>anything other than pretentious LARPers

my main and recurring thought is "I never knew sword fighting could be distilled into something so incredibly boring" and also seriously, when does the fun start?

are the "old treatises and manuals" they reference genuine? or is that just ye olde memery?

this shit is why people make fun of you guys, this shit right here

I've been doing HEMA for almost three years now.

It's perfectly possible to be an autistic bore about it, and equally so to just handle it like any other sport.

Stick fighting is an actual thing in SA. It looks fun, too.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguni_stick-fighting

Yes they are, they are texts written by swordmasters who for some at least were widely known and advertised during their times and of who we know about from sources that doesn't even have a lot to do with swordfighting.

Wait some people are being mean on the internet...? Impossible.

>Skall & Easton
>worst fucking HEMA thread ever
>damn, we need the general on /asp/ back
here, have at least some good HEMA
youtube.com/watch?v=-EKpnpE0xhU
youtube.com/watch?v=g11ZkuL3aVs

What happened to that one? Used to browse it frequently some months ago. Did people just lost interest and the threads died?

>What happened to that one?
Rassling happend, it's hard to keep the thread afloat when the spandex-kids spam the board non-stop.

There are some, but most seem to be of either a completely average physique or very lithe. Take Richard Marsden for example... he's like a toothpick but boy is he like a garbage disposal on the move.

You'd think they'd be a little more self aware.

I don't hate it but it never looks dynamic or fun, its like HEMA takes the mundane technicalities of fencing theory and the dullness of rigid adherence to form of kendo and mixes it together to form something boring as fuck

You might be surprised that form is actually important to effective swordsmanship

youtube.com/watch?v=4GoQlvc_H3s
Starts at ~ 2:10, doesn't look boring AF.

that's buhurt, not hema

no, looks like these dudes will lose an eye within a week

I didnt say it doesn't matter but HEMA seems far too obsessed by theory and form which damages the perception of it by outsiders

See this is the good shit, period costumes and actual speed and intensity and a sense that they are having fun, shame its not all like this

2pro4u

What you're looking for is LARP, not any sort of fencing.

because Kendo is absolutely gay and it is a sport not a martial art you fag

>Wtf why are these autists wearing tights and ye older clothes lmfao fucking LARPers!
>Wtf why are these autists wearing modernized padding with a referee and a crowd fucking LARPers!
You don't give a fuck about HEMA, you've just exoticized Asians and dislike yourself.

That shit is the exact same thing you hear at sport bars but for a different sport. It only appears more cringeworthy to you because you associate HEMA with nerds and other sports with your bullies.

dude just look at the state of /asp/ these days, i simply cannot wade through all that wrestling shit to find my belove martial art threads

>think it's cool when guys doing HEMA get decked out in period accurate gear
>somehow this translates to not liking it

wew lad

>actual speed and intensity
Are you retarded? That's choreographed, they're re-enacting various techniques.

>What do you guys think about HEMA?
I think it's legit, if you find a good club. Many are infested by cancerous larpers or those BoN retards.
However most people are gonna find it boring, specifically because it's legit and not flashy wushu style bullshit.
I mean just look at fighting sports: hardcore fans aside, spectators get bored if they don't see blood.
Defensive boxing? Boring running away.
Ground grappling? Faggy manhugging.
Technically minded fencers? Cringey nerds.

>mfw no hema near me
Sucks

>You mean LARPing?
I think he means this youtube.com/watch?v=wKKSI1OPGa4
Its not LARPing, its kind of cool.
Not a lot of skill just kind of throwing your weight around.

>International Medieval Combat Federation
>not LARP

It's a bunch of neckbeard faggots awkwardly hitting each other. It's like american football. There's absolutely nothing cool about it.

And then some retards believe that's how medieval knights actually fought.

What about this gets you so triggered?
Who gives a shit if people want to dress up in medieval armor and hit each other? No skin off my ass. They could dress up in assless greaves and circlejerk for all I care.

>assless greaves

What do you mean?

It was a joke.

/k/ - weapons

there are regular sword threads there, but no general. wew

Mate, I'll jump through the screen and smack you right in the gobber. Swear on me mum.

you sure? did you check the map?

sadly the entire state of /asp/ has scattered to all the boards of Veeky Forums since the wrestling infestation.
martial arts went to Veeky Forums , hema went here, wouldnt be surprised to find climbing in /out/ or something. only airsoft and skateboard seem to hold out

It's basically dueling 14-15th century dueling.
People didn't fight like that because training 40 thousand people to do so was bollocks, you already had to arm and armour them, training them in styles that take years to get good at is pointless, teach them to hit a guy over the head and put them in groups. most people fought with pole arms, which are rather straight forward anyway. Most soldiers would have never seen a treatise, and wouldn't have learned longsword, nor spend much time learning to fight alone when they had to fight in groups.

Also, try doing HEMA drunk, because a lot of people throughout history fought drunk.

People who did learn from a treatise might have used a good deal of the information, but they wouldn't rely on instructions for dueling. Most surviving manuals show the use of swords against unarmored or heavily armored, either impromptu duels or prepared bouts, if they actually wanted to kill each other they would have brought pole axes or hammers.

I'd really like to get into HEMA because the technical side of it fascinates me, but everyone I meet who's into stuff like that has a terminal case of alpha-nerd syndrome and I can't be doing with goatee'd lads living out their fantasies when I just want to study the books and have something to get good at. I actually tried starting from scratch a few years ago with a couple of friends just using PDFs of the books and youtube videos but had to give it up because we all moved around for work etc.

Swords were used just as much as polearms faggot.

/asp/ - Alternative Sports & Wrestling was a mistake.

Condolences from Veeky Forums

I've been at a HEMA club for about four months now and everyone I've met there is either a gigantic fucking loser, an ultra-chad sporty type, or a socially awkward ugly girl.

I'd say that the losers make up like 80% of them. Just awful, boring people without any sort of social awareness. One guy, who I'd maybe had like two conversations with prior to this, just started randomly talking to me about Hentai. I was just completely baffled.

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all going by the people I've met who are into HEMA and reenactment and stuff, they tend to all glom into one group around here. Not that I'm chad thundercock or anything but they seem to mostly be massive spergs with zero self-awareness coupled with massive egos from being 'known' in that circle. I'd be happy to know just a couple of people who were just earnestly interested in it and didn't base their entire lives around it.

boxing. your right arm is ur shield, ur left ur sword,protect ur heart head and groin, go for the liver (left side exposed diagonal down from the heart) or try to break shield defences/ko critical spots

use ur body weight by having control of its movement through spacetime and understand that offensive prerogative exists in everything as advantage

No, kendo is no more a sport than bjj, in fact its less a sport since competition is only part of kendo.

Kendo actually preserves a good deal of practical stuff its just not the focus of the art these days.

Ahahaha, really /hema/? Coming to Veeky Forums?

I remember when some bohurt and SCA guys used to come to your threads suggesting combining your generals, but no, you claimed that the wrestling-infestation did not affect yoi and that you could stay afloat by yourself. And look at you know...

Have some cool first-person bohurt-footage: youtu.be/UBt5iKa3YSM

wtf is this shit

how is this scored/judged

You're out when a third point of your body touches the ground (knee, butt, edge of the shield, etc.). Also the marshalls can flag you down if your armor breaks or you break the rules.

I rather have the rassling fags than SCA or bohurt.

No it doesn't.
You have no cutting edge you don't learn how to handle a sword.

It's a sport nothing more deal with it you fag.

If you want to you can fight me with sharp swords til one of us dies.

btw TSKSR member here so I am happy to take the duel :)

>btw TSKSR member here so I am happy to take the duel :)
Oh really, but what about the oath about not fighting another person without authorization, what about not purposedly engage in altercations ? Way to disrespect the art, soke and teacher...

Btw, kendo kata is a thing, designed by top-notch kenjutsuka some of whom actually fought in wars. Meik Skoss even said that it serves as a perfect japanese sword primer.

I dont do kendo.

Even Meik Skoss (if you do a koryu I assume you know that name) has said that the kendo kata done correctly contain pretty much everything you need to know. Its a question of emphasis. As you know the character building and sports aspects are emphasized today

And this is why no one likes you.

And since we are at it, here it is demonstrated by two of the most important japanese swordsmen of the Meiji and Taisho eras.
youtube.com/watch?v=R2ZRpl9WoPQ

>Training against non resisting opponents.
>I know how to sword fight guys

This is literally you.

youtube.com/watch?v=XBDmU3SroH8

kys you disgusting weeaboos

kendo has no place here

let that sync in for a minute

youd rather have people who watch and cant shut up about fake fighting over people who dress up in armor and bash each other over the head

oh god you know its starting to heat up when the mcdojoists start posting their demonstration videos

I used to do a little fencing back then
What's the real difference? Be more specific than "it's more like the real thing"

Wearing one of their shirts right now

what, do you prefer ass with your greaves?

if anything it's less like "the real thing" in fencing you actually fucking fight each other

well the swords are heavier and a bit more rigid(though still flexible) . you dont fight in a straight line and the scoring system is still in its infancy. you also have more distinct swords. in fencing the three swords are almost copies of each other, a rapier/longsword/actual sabre/sword&buckler are very different

How do they differ in technique?

So what exactly is your experience in sword arts?

I understand that having your finger on the ricasso makes thrusting easier, but does it make cutting somehow more difficult? I've heard such claims but on the other hand Bolognese sidesword uses that grip and is in my impression fairly cut-heavy.

dont know since ive never trained in olympic fencing.
most techniques and stances are straight out of historical manuals. for an educated guess id say there is much less jumping forward to get the point and no flicking

Kendo is a sport. The earlier versions were more combat oriented, but it is now a sport. Kenjutsu is actual combat swordsmanship. Iaijutsu is actual combat swordsmaship. If you compare a kenjutsu practitioners to kendo practitioners, you will notice a glaring difference in how they attack, defend, and move. Modern kendo is designed to be most optimum at scoring points in a controlled environment. Kenjutsu is designed for fighting. In some respects, some movements are quite similar to European longsword.
>How do they differ in technique?
Very different. Because fencing is most of the time who tags the other guy first, fencers end up not withdrawing quick enough to defend against a riposte, which is something that HEMA practitioners have to do. Also, you only fight in a straight line in fencing. You can move around in HEMA.

So it's historical, that means there are training manuals right?

The big issue is that the equipment is still very lacking, dedicated gear is still very much work in progress.
Take hand protection as an example, where every available solution is far from ideal and things like pic related aren't gonna be out for a while. Combining adequate protection and coverage with the mobility needed for some techniques is a serious engineering challenge.