Why don't we see any Heathen philosophers?
I would like a specific answer.
By Heathen I mean Germanic Pagan.
Why don't they have any great thinkers?
The Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Middle-Easterners, all had their own philosophers or thinkers, in the least a thinking class/category.
Was it do to the harsh society, small tribal enclaves, lifestyle?
And slightly more relevant to today which would undercut the objection that Christians burned the Germanic philosophy schools (I just know someone is going to claim this)
Why don't we see any Scandinavian philosophers or thinkers, I mean really big names, like Nietzsche, Kant, Marx, Plato, just someone that's worth remembering or made a significant contribution.
>Kirkegaard
Yeah but he was Danish and more German than Scandinavian.
Why do the Germanic peoples (German, French, English etc) have such a monopoly on philosophy when compared to their Nordic brothers?
I mean, surely Scandinavians are a Germanic people but why don't they participate in the newer Germanic tradition of philosophy?
I know Ancient Germans couldn't hold a candle to Rome and Greece or anywhere else, but now that the dust has settled and the world has modernized more and European culture (Germanic values and Mediterranean philosophical tradition) have spread literally across the world, why is it that Nordics just aren't putting out like everyone else?
Why do Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Southern Pagans (looking at the Greek thinkers) etc. all have rich philosophical traditions but nothing ever comes out of Scandinavia?
Heathen Philosophers?
I'll get some replies one day....
when did the roman emperors become germanic again?
I'm talking out of my ass, but I,d assume that relatively little surviving records of these tribal civilizations, and the fact they were tribal and a bit less prosperous than their hellenistic neighbors probably plays a role in the lack of "heathen philosophers".
No writing system probably?
People are tricked into thinking we know anything concrete about the Norse religion through all the games and pop culture stuff.
In a pre-modern society, if you were going to write down anything it would be the most important things in your conception of the world- your mythology, your gods, your ritual practices etc.
But in reality, 80% of what we know about Norse mythology comes from a couple of Christians writing hundreds of years after Scandinavia nominally dropped paganism. The rest comes from Arabs and linguistics.
We know barely anything about the most important aspects of these people. Secular philosophy is rare in any society but in a largely non-literate one we'll never know about it.
>HAHAHAHAHA HOW IS EXISTENTIAL CRISIS REAL HAHAHAHAH. NIGGA JUST HAVE SEX, LIKE NIGGA GO ON A RAID OR SOMETHING HAHA
-Theoderic, Germanic Philosopher.
Basically this. I would add that even records of battles, usually important, just seem to be missing. And with Germanic tribes, their society seems to have been nomadic, so they wouldn't have time or reason to build any great monuments or write down their ideas. It's also important to remember that there weren't libraries, so any philosophers would have philosophized, then died. Then, 100 years later, someone would say the same shit.
sciencemag.org
This is just an example of our utter ignorance of Northern Europe before Christianity.
Philosophy have only bern developed independently in Greece, India and China. Rest is offshot of these. Makes you think...
Don't forget that Europe is much worse for incidental preservation than places like the middle east. Bogs are treasure troves but that's about it; most of their shit was made of wood so not only could it be burned down or hacked apart but it would (unlike stone) decay all by itself just by virtue of being exposed to the elements.
Germanic Paganism was thinked as a folk tradition and therefore as a set of values and not something you discuss or think about. In other words German paganism is a meme religion and was only created by the Thule Society to replace Christianity.
Current day's error theory in moral philosophy was developed in Stockholm.
In a more general sense, I often wonder what diverse philosophical traditions we're missing out on due to them being remembered only in oral tradition.
Nobody really knows what form their religion took because it was primarily passed through oral tradition and a good chunk of the shit relating to it wound up destroyed.
study animalism op
Bards and shamans etc would be the closest thing
>Was it do to the harsh society, small tribal enclaves, lifestyle?
I would say that the harsh society and lifestyle, and the enclaves of small communities spread apart in remote forests weren't conducive to virtually all higher civilised pursuits, and it makes complex ideas more difficult to spread particularly without writing.
If classic sholars are to be believed, germanic societies had warriors as the only noble profession. Apart from preists, judges, etc but they were probably warriors as well - I don't know whether they or werent and im not sure anybody does.
People lived in vast wiildernesses, were landlocked in many cases, and life could be pretty crude and harsh. The only way for a young man to see more of the world then their little hamlet in a meadow or clearing and their hunting grounds/tribal territory, was to go off on an adventure, which basically meant raiding and banditry. To go off their own tribal territory they have to go into enemy tribal territory...to get to the sea most tribes would have to go through a lot of enemy territory.
If you stay in your territory you still have to worry about invasions, and local strongmen standing over you and stealing your land and produce.
assuming you're serious, it's mostly due to literacy
while runes existed in Germanic areas from 1st century AD, writing didn't really take over until as late as 1000 AD when they were Christianised
they had great thinkers, like all people do, but they didn't write it down
it was incorporated into Tradition (language, custom, songs, culture, etc)
Christianity banned the practice of the "old ways"
and we only know about it because SOME Christians, like Snorre Sturlason, wrote it down before it disappear forever
don't be stupid
Germanic Paganism is more akin to Hindusim really
just daily rituals, many gods, traditions and customs etc
Christianity is a BOOK RELIGION
that has consequences, and was not the norm for most religions around the world
>don't be stupid
Follow your advice
>Germanic Paganism is more akin to Hindusim really just daily rituals, many gods, traditions and customs etc
>Christianity is a BOOK RELIGION
German paganism has sacred texts like the eddas, and since it died hundreds of years ago there is no tradition left unlike christianity.
>eddas
Thats a bunch of stories a christian monk wrote down because the myths as a fantasy were dear to him as he saw it as his countries tradition.
It was never sacred and the Edda skalds often changed stuff slightly if it fitted the rhimes better, so they are no "conservative" pertrayal of what people actually believed.
very revealing
the eddas were never read by a pagan ever
because it was written down after the religion was dead
the authors were Christians who wanted to preserve the dying culture
esp. Snorre wanted to preserve the skaldic rules of the poems
we have no idea how Hávamál or Völuspá were sung
or if they were performed like a Greek theatre
we simply don't know
>no traditions left
tell me, why do you have a tree in your living room during Christmas?
Interestingly, Germany was chock full of pagan folk believes up until the 19th century.
People sacrifieced food to house cobolds, peasants in westfahlia knelt down bareheaded before bushes if they collected holunder and said a rhime to thank them.
Peasants believed an animalwarden would live and nurture the fields, so the last garb was for him in whihc he could live after harvest over the winter, in the form of a wolf/pig puppet.
But this stuff is mainly ignored by modern LARPAgans even though the brother Grimms and Mannhardt wrote extensivly about it and tried to reconstruct some theories over germanic polytheism from the hundreds of weirdass rites and beliefs.
To be clear i'm not a germanic pagan myself and i don't think the eddas are sacred but many pagans like Varg Vikernes consider them sacred
Varg Vikernes believes the thorhammer stands for gravity and that they were aware of this physical phenomenum last time I checked.
>many pagans
Are also vid related.
youtube.com
I want the types of Friedrich Hielscher back..
I think people here would enjoy Adam Wallace's Paganism/Christianity discussion series
they are a bit edgy/Evolian types, but the people involved are very knowledgeable
the truth is, Christianity absorbed MANY elements of European paganism
youtube.com
I wonder if middleeastern christians have traces of semitic paganism which was still a thing during 500ad after all.
I know Islam has some of it
"demons" are called "jinnah" which is from the pre-Islamic djinni (as in ginnie in a bottle)
I know very little of non-European Christianity
Coptic Christianity is very old, and particular to Africa
>Varg
>"Ooh, where's the attitude?!? I told him that they should call the god of cowardice (the so called Odin's disciple lady virkgayrnes (that bad girl who sings in BURZUM) to help them, because he is specialized on to stab men on their back!! - aahha..haha..). "
>nwnprod.com
Where when you when Varg was BTFOd by old school Black Metal?
OK.
The traditional germanic philosopphy contains a lifestyle of deep attachment to the rhythms of nature. The early men of wisdom had no need to write books about their knowledge. The need of writing thick books came after the fall of roman empire, after some people have seen the mess, that a lot of knowledge gets lost....
In the middle ages you can find some germanic philosophy of nature "philosophia naturalis". It was not so influenced by roman church as you may think. Yes, the scripts were made by roman monks, but those were just the only people who could read and write, who had acces to old philosophical scripts and at the same time who had the freedom to observe the nature beside of social influences. To call just one famous name (in the tradition of old germanic nature cults), some texts of which I have read: Hildegard von Bingen, 12th century, she has also developed her own alphabet which is very similar to runes. IMO she could also be one of the founders of the modern occultism.
Also it is not correct to observe philosophical ideas as something separated from eachother. The FKCIN ORIGIN of philosophy is the forum and the communication. Philosophy is the
melting pot if ideas... That is why "there is no pagan philosophers".
But look deeper and you will see a lot of them. All those alchemists and universal scholars. There are tonns of em..
eh.. and one good skandinavian, he is really good and a higher class then Nietsche - it is Soren Kierkegaard. His "supspeciae aeternitatis" is way more logical then nietzsches "uber-human".. And what is logic? Logic is the language of the nature. ;)
>The traditional germanic philosopphy contains a lifestyle of deep attachment to the rhythms of nature.
And you know this after consulting what sources exactly?. Pretty much all we have are the Merseburg Incantations.
>she has also developed her own alphabet which is very similar to runes
Runes are at least partially based on Greek and Latin so her alphabet being similar to them is no surprise. I also I highly doubt you can source me on von Bingen being influenced by pagan ideas at all.
Only new Age bullshiters claim stuff like that - not historians.
>Logic is the language of the nature
This makes my brain hurt. Nobody trained in logic I know would agree. Where are the STEM-kids when you need them?
>Islam
Well, everybody knows that omnious cube rite stems from a time they worshipped their djinnblocs and not the retarded justification fanfiction about some jewish prophet building it.
Now I was curious about the levantines and their incredible vast pantheon which probably rubbed off on the hellenic one.
Is there a hint of baals in levantine christianity is what I wonder.
>There are many german, spanish,
italian descendents here. I don't know what they are doing here !?!? I
hate them! They brought that plague from Europe. One of my goals is to
send them back to Europe.
Hispano Trumpo has spoken I guess.
Dude is black as fvck.
That stuff is not ignored by modern Pagans at all you stupid cuck
Stop talking about things you know nothing of nigger
They didn't really have philosophy.
What they did have was runes, which they used to predict all sorts of stuff. So I guess it was really shamanistic, so a little too early for a systematic system of principles and doctrines. This still exists, by the way
barbarians
they thought runes were magic and only used them to ward off spirits from their belongings or to vandalize structures
>But in reality, 80% of what we know about Norse mythology comes from a couple of Christians writing hundreds of years after Scandinavia nominally dropped paganism. The rest comes from Arabs and linguistics
I am with this guy. We really don't know anything about these people.
>lol y no scandi thinkers
>Kierkegaard doesn't count because reasons
So that's why all the illiterate ones wrote pussy everywhere and the litterate ones wrote pompeii tier shit posting? That's why one of the walls in Hagia Sophia says "Halvdan wurz here"?
name one other than Kirkegaard?
and my point wasn't really that there are no Scandi thinkers, its that we never hear of them in the past and in the modern times Scandis seem to pale in comparison to their Germanic non-Nordic counterparts.
The English, French, and Germans have had no problem integrating into the Greek philosophical tradition and building their own but it seems Scandis either aren't capable or just simply don't and I want to know why.
Why aren't there more Scandi philosophers in relation to others, I mean its not for lack of culture as the Viking Age brought loads of different cultures together, can't be ethnic or anything as they are Germanic and Germanics can do philosophy.
>there are no Scandi thinkers
Kirkegaard is Scandinavian
Denmark is in Scandinavia
I think it's just Germans making people look bad. No idea why they are so dominant in modern philosophy, maybe Hegel was right when he said the language was uniquely suited to it.
>Varg Vikernes believes the thorhammer stands for gravity and that they were aware of this physical phenomenum last time I checked.
And why should we believe Varg Vikernes?
Check out Marcus Jacob Monrad
The best philosophers, writers, artists, etc. Come from places with great cultural interchange and upheaval. Scandinavia is a nice place to live that hasn't had much conflict since the Swedish empire so people don't get depressed and weird enough to be great philosophers.
This strange dane being an exception.
a flaming faggot
Probably because philosophy's fucking bullshit. Scandies have plenty of STEM achievements.
I would say due to christian purging, crusading and basically trying to stamp them out of existence, which they all but did. There are plenty of religions that the Abrahamic religions either dissolved or took in as a sect.
>name one other than Kirkegaard
>names Kirkegaard
That's a really good answer, what about the English and French languages?
Perhaps the Germanic origin of English?
The French have less philosophers than The English and The French have less German influence in their language than The English.
Really, really good answer.
Norwegian philosopher, never heard of him till now....
Thanks!
>opposed Leftist Hegelianism and Materialism
Now I know why I haven't heard of him.
Seems like a really swell guy.
A strange Dane indeed, the exception rather than the rule.
I heard that Kirkegaard had a craptastic life, this would give you credence in what you say, that Scandis have a good environment or at least have acclimated themselves to a harsh environment.
>Depression and weirdness lead to philosophers
Run with this, take this thought a bit further.
this and Seem to me the best answers.
Linguistic relativity is bullshit. Say it weren't though, and Germanic languages really were suited for philosophy there should be tons of Scandinavian philosophers too then.
(You)
The ones you listed had widespread literacy and literature. They was much in the way of documentation, and so when a philosopher did something profound, it was but lost. We know that Druids on Celtic society would've been in a good position to be philosopher-like, and it might be quite possible that a heathen Völva or seer of some sort would've been in a similar position, but never "launched" due to a lack of textual records.
Again, it triggers people to say this but Christianity DID try and wipe out the old pagan beliefs, and the history is written much by the victors.
They had a writing system
because praising nature is not about thinking and writing it on paper. It's about feeling. Fellings can't be reduced to letters and words.
Also Miguel Serrano
Should've added, they just didn't use it
I hate to be the guy to do it, but
>French
>Germanic
They are a Latin peoples, just the Latin peoples with the most Germanic involvement.
...
The norse did have philosophers. They had whole libraries. Everything was burned when they converted. Runes were a legitimate form of writing, and it even evolved into a younger futhark (which isn't considerably that different from its older variants), and that's because of literature.
t. varg vigerns :-DDD
Runes were not used to write down big stories such as historical or religious texts though
>I also I highly doubt you can source me on von Bingen being influenced by pagan ideas at all.
Not that user, but even the name Hildegard
>guarded by Hilde
is a direct reference to germanic tradition.
She was of noble heritage coming of a family holding significant land, suggesting a influential ancestry in pagan society, as well as exposure t pagan ideas and world views, especially since it was common for women to hold and pass on oral traditions and knowledge.
Her writings of folk medicine and healing plants indicate her transferring and preserving older knowledge into the new system.
>Varg Vikernes
even if we can't trust his factual assertions we can gain a great deal from his wisdom and experience.
He killed a guy, sang in a band, burned some churches (allegedly in person), has a large family, seems like he did it all (in terms of modern heathenry)
maybe he's what modern Germanic pagan philosophers will become?
I'll bear that in mind.
Thanks, friend.
How come?
Time consuming, too much work?
Maybe the average person only knew the "necessary" parts their language's grammar and syntax?
I've heard of the skaldic poets and the eddas and things like that being remembered because they had a strict form and prose when being recited.
What do you think?
>Time consuming, too much work?
Not the intended use.
They were used for ritual practice, divination, spells... not for writing down tales.
They were also mostly carved into wood or stone, making it really really hard to use this method for keeping much information.
The skaldes memorized the mythology and prosa, thus being living cultural memory.
With the prosecution and eventual annihilation of
this tradition, this memory vanished, safe the few pieces that scholars using the Latin writing system preserved.