Another Aztec/Meso thread, last one seemed pretty successful.
Aztec military organization was actually quite complicated. The army varied in size depending on how many soldiers were levied from tributary provinces, but the largest recorded size was 400,000.
Battalions of 8000 were split into companies, and then squads under the command of a captain. Troop costume was dependent on individual rank and varied heavily within the same unit, but units used similar colors and banners to maintain cohesion.
Highly skilled units used obsidian lined broadswords that were one or two handed. Levies and low skilled soldiers used obsidian lined halberds, as well as bows and slings. Blunt weapons were, however, used by both military classes.
In battle, the Aztecs attempted to surround and outflank their enemies. They almost always engaged enemy forces with superior numbers, in order to maintain a strong center.
They were known for feint retreats. By intentionally retreating their center line, the charging enemy would be drawn into a double envelopment by Aztecs soldiers. Oftentimes, the Aztecs would dig foxholes and trenches in order to conceal elite units for surprise attacks and flanking maneuvers.
Following an exchange of projectile fire, elite units called Cuachicqueh were sent into battle first. They operated in pairs, and served as Mexica shock troops to cause chaos among enemy lines and potentially provoke them into a premature attack. After them came the first organized units of veteran soldiers, followed by levies and soldiers in training.
Hudson Phillips
The "Shorn Ones" were the most prestigious warrior society – their heads were shaved apart from a long braid over the left ear. Their bald heads and faces were painted one half blue and another half red or yellow. They served as imperial shock troops, and took on special tasks as well as battlefield assistance roles when needed.
Over six captives and dozens of other heroic deeds were required for this rank. They apparently turned down captaincies in order to remain constant battlefield combatants. Recognizable by their yellow tlahuitzli, they had sworn not to take a step backwards during a battle on pain of death at the hands of their comrades.
They were badass dudes. They NEEDED to fight in order to obtain and maintain their position in the order. The yellow fellow on the Codex is one of "shorn"
Nathaniel Torres
So tell me about their cavalry arm.
Henry Young
But having such a strong military built many enemies. As OP's pictures show, the Spanish had plenty of native help.
The Tlaxcalans, who can be seen on any codex and even Aztec art, have red and white braided ropes around their heads. Their confederacy of tribes actually fought the Spanish when they found them - contrary to the stories we all hear of every Mesoamerican bowing to them as Thundergods and what-not.
Their chief saw how so few Spaniards could decimate their ranks. Whether it was a way to spare their own tribe thousands of more deaths or if it truly was a way for them to finally usurp the Aztecs, the Tlaxcalans joined up with the Spanish.
Their support during and after the conquest of Central America gave them a lot actually. Any Tlaxcalan was allowed to remain as such: they were not forced into slavery or "citizenship" under New Spain. They could carry guns, ride horses, hold noble titles if they requested their lands to be entered into Spanish sovereignty.
They maintained their language for over a century, but it was just better to learn Spanish for business purposes. They had some Tlaxcalans go back to Spain after gaining proficient Spanish languages skills in order to aid the royalty in planning and maintaining of the region.
Gavin Cooper
There were no horses in Mesoamerica before European arrival. The Europeans were the only horsemen in the army against the Aztecs. That changed after a century, but horses were indeed a rare and sometimes scary sight to natives.
Jack Bailey
Did the mesoamericans ever realize their costumes looked like shit?
Isaiah Ross
To them, their costumes were THE SHIT. They tried to resemble all manner of things from animals to gods/demons (depends who you ask).
Their generals and higher officers wore helmets that resembled a screaming skull. They had little armor so to speak. They liked soaking their cloth armor in salt water in order to make it very hard.
The Spaniards remarked and how hard it was to cut, but how easy it was to penetrate with a thrust or with some kind of ranged weapon.
Without access to a lot of metal, they never really mastered the art of metallurgy. They made due with stone, obsidian [still used in modern surgery scalpels], and cold-forged copper. They did not use the copper in war however: it was considered too valuable and useful in civic tasks like deforestation for farms.
They even paid some of their folks using the copper heads.
Aiden Perez
So how exactly did the Mexica manage to build Tenochtitlan? Was there anything else like it in the region previously? Hell, anything like it in all of the Americas?
If you mean island cities yes. Tah Itza was a Maya city contemporary to Tenochtitlan in the Peten region. Zaachila of the Zapotecs was also said to be an island city. If by size then Teotihuacan is larger. And Cholula While smaller was still pretty big.
Parker Morales
Jesus. No wonder they're extinct.
Anthony Fisher
Does anybody know why they had a Huastec (Cuextecatl) rank? Did the Otontin rank was also related to the Otomies?
Blake Roberts
They weren't Huastecs per say they just copied their attire. They appropriated a lot of things of the Huastec culture as much as they despised them. Even their deities Tlazolteotl, Toci, Quetzalcoatl in his cone shaped hat appearance came from there. It was related to the Otomies, but the warriors themselves were not auxillaries. They copied their face painting, and had a hairstyle kind of merging a traditional aztec warriors mixed with a Otomies.
Luis Perez
PAJAMA WAR
Isaiah Johnson
Cool, were there more ranks like those?
Jose Ross
OP here. None that are known, but my guess is there are quite a few military ranks that will remain unknown for a long time so its entirely possible.
Brandon Williams
Now it makes more sense, thanks guys
Parker Rogers
Can you post a link to last thread?
I also heard on /v/ there's been a lot of precolumbian weapon threada lately, would love to see an archive of those as well
I've never seen a source that this was an actual thing they had.
>. They did not use the copper in war however: it was considered too valuable and useful in civic tasks like deforestation for farms.
You sure about that? Weren't tlaximaltepoztli/tepoztli sometimes copper?
Juan Fisher
Why did aztecs eat so much corn and not enough turkey?
Oliver Myers
Yes, they were copper sometimes. But those were used in ceremonies because of how grand and beautiful the copper looked. I mean, I could see them having it on the field to intimidate some of the foes.
Copper could shatter a hundred obsidian weapons and still be usable
Grayson Garcia
Do you have sources to back the "saving copper tools for infrastructural rather then warfare purpose" up?
Elijah Sanchez
OP again. If you're interested in this kind of weaponry, here's mine. I bought it off of Ebay, theres a seller that custom makes these. Just look up Macuahuitl on Ebay and it will be one of the first things that pops up.
The blades arent knapped, they're machined. Although thats not accurate, it makes them look really nicely constructed. The Aztecs were master obsidian knappers, and we'll probably never see that level of expertise again.
Wyatt Reyes
Put some white feathers on there, I've seen some of their art having the feathers on for ceremonies. It looks great against the dark obsidian
"Ancient West Mexican Metallurgy: South and Central American Origins and West Mexican Transformations" by Dorothy Hosler
Hudson Myers
Well when you mix maize with beans you get a good amount of protein. And there's so many uses for maize. Tortillas, tamales, popcorn, atol (a drink), chicha (an alcoholic drink), I read somewhere even the stalks were used as toilet paper.
Henry Hall
>I've never seen a source that this was an actual thing they had.
Well the Chichimecs in the 15th century did mount them and became even more of a problem to Spanish attempts to reach the silver mines in the north. It got to the point that the Chichimecs beat them militarily in a long war and the Spaniards had to conquer them culturally, with religion, and settling nahuas in Chichimec terrirory. As a way to show them how to stop being nomads and living as 'civilized' peoples.
James Bell
Who's your favorite mesoamerican figure, Veeky Forums?
I'm a fan of Nezhualcoyotle myself.
Henry Murphy
Probably him too, his story would make a good film. 8 Deer Jaguar Claw is also an interesting leader.
And who can forget the tragedy of Huemac.
Noah Stewart
Did the Aztecs really thought that they were the choosen people of the gods or its just a myth?
Also post as many pics of Tenochtitlan as possible, I need some nice visuals of the city for stuff.
Easton Phillips
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Ian Lee
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Brayden Price
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James Mitchell
Pic related comes from a remnant of the Texcoco lake system.
David Kelly
Present-day farming upon a volcano
Camden Wright
Iztacihuatl and Popocatepetl volcanoes
Tyler Gray
View from Mexico City
Hudson Ortiz
Tlahuicole desu senpai
Adam Reyes
That's interesting that the Spanish would do that. I rarely hear of Europeans resorting to such tactics. Usually more force and men was the answer to resistance.
Beautiful
Colton Gutierrez
MORE! KEEP IT COMING!
Isaac Hill
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Jackson Edwards
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Kayden Davis
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Easton Jackson
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Alexander Morales
Sadly, other than the center of the city, not much is known about the architecture
Benjamin Thompson
Anyone recommend any good Mesoamerican fiction in film/comic/manga etc?
Angel King
Fuck these people were savages. Thank his my ancestors wiped these fuckers out. Fuck them and fuck you for making a thread about this death cult.
Mason Wood
They weren't wiped out, the descendants still exist.
Landon Kelly
Oh you mean those fuckers south of the border STILL chopping each other to pieces?
Josiah Brown
Heh
Ryan Harris
Who are the modern day descendants?
Gabriel Thompson
We should do what Saddam did with the Ziggurats and rebuild some of those pyramids or something, they just look soo cool...
Michael Williams
Well perhaps. If you mean Aztec, they'd have to be Nahua descendants (and specific ones at that) and as I understand much of the violence in Mexico is in the north and the coasts.
Nahuas (pic related)
Jeremiah Johnson
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Joseph Gutierrez
See above
Austin Sanchez
Did it really look anything like that?
Asher Bennett
No idea other than Apocalypto
You could always try to read the Popol Vuh
Asher Hill
>"(About Montezuma II) He possessed out of the city as well as within, numerous villas, each of which had its peculiar sources of amusement, and all were constructed in the best possible manner for the use of a great prince and lord. Within the city his palaces were so wonderful that it is hardly possible to describe their beauty and extent ; I can only say that in Spain there is nothing equal to them."
- Cortes to Charles V
Jaxon Hernandez
I don't think the mexicans would like that.
They are very christian now, and woudl be disgusted by their ancestors religious behavior - skining people alive and eating their hearts and crap
Ethan Flores
>skining people alive and eating their hearts The hearts were offered to the gods, and they skinned only the bodies of the warriors were sacrificed. At the end of the day those captured warriors could have died in the battlefield in similar ways, if not worse.
Joshua Wilson
I often wonder how indians came to invent the bow. I mean, I've never in my life seen it addressed how two different sides of the world stumbled upon the same weapon.
The world is in desperate need of a History of Archery documentary.
Oliver Powell
They probably didnt invent it. It was introduced into mexico from north america, which means that it might have come to the americas from the old world. Small scale seafaring traders moving from russia to alaska. Just a guess though.
Aaron Morales
bowns are old.
The natives came from mongolia/ north asia , chances are they bring bows with them.
Isaac Long
these are all by the same artist. I found a site that has info on his work, his email, and mentions a CD that you can buy that has more of it but I don't see a way to buy it and it's all in spainish so I can't email him, either
nice meme
Yeah, pretty much every first hand account from the conquistadors mention that Tenochititlan and the neighboring cities were unbelievably magnificent and BTFO'd anything comparable in europe.
I'm trying to come up with a story about Viravocha being a time-traveler from the distant future going back to collect records of the ancient Mayan/Incan cultures, at the end of their civilization and basically leaving just as the Spainards are en route. However, I'm rapidly losing inspirational steam as I'm woefully ignorant of mesoamerican history other than what I've read in mystery books from the 70's and 80's.
Where do I start, so that I can better put myself in the shoes of pre-Columbian New World?
Dominic Lewis
Handbook to life in the Aztec world is a good place to start. Its not a scholarly source because Aguilar Moreno isnt a scholar, but its good for basic info.
Brayden Reyes
I have a lot of Mesoamerican related pdf books. If anyones interested I can put them on mega.
Levi Harris
Thanks broski! Could you upload them to mediafire?
Robert Bell
Make a thread on Veeky Forums and upload them there?
Benjamin Hughes
Nah man, we literally have Aztec tlatoanis in our currency, we like the Aztec/Maya stuff big time but a lot of people are not interested/well documented regarding history in Mexico, no one would complain about a pyramid or two being rebuilt but not many would be interested in the projec either.
Christopher Sullivan
I'll try. Do I need to sign up to make an account? I can post there and here.
Isaiah Myers
The south of Mexico is way more tame than the north with the cartels
Landon Foster
daily reminder that the aztecs sacrificed less people per captia then individual countries in europe executed, and the aztec sacrifices were at least treated extremely well and the process was somewhat voluntary.
It was at worse only just as bad as what was going on in europe at the time.
Isaac Campbell
Where can one find those statistics about the European executions vs. Aztec sacrifices?
Jayden Phillips
>Battalion >8000 men
Does not compute
Aiden Brown
I thought it was reported that major festivals had sacrifices in the thousands.
And a polytheistic society would have a lot of festivals.
Lincoln Flores
Yes, you need an account.
Christian Morgan
They had a lot
I can't imagine this being better than Europe. They would sacrifice 40,000 people over the course of a couple days to celebrate a new temple opening. I mean... Europe would have been depopulated if they tried that every time a Church opened.
Josiah Phillips
And don't forget: the Aztecs waged war using weapons designed to maim and injure opponents. They needed to feed their gods so much blood that using your own people was not enough. They had to destroy entire cultures, languages, and nations to do so.
Just because they wanted their fucking corn to grow. Europe and the Middle East did similar stupid stuff over land and territory. God wills it after all
Jaxson Phillips
They had festivals year round, for every month of the year except the 5 useless days. And they had special festivals for other events like coronations, new temples built, new fire ceremony etc. If you read most of the accounts though sometimes only one was sacrificed, sometimes dozens, sometimes none. The biggest recorded was for the completion of the new temple, which consisted of thousands (2-4k though most likely). Pic kinda related
Joshua King
What book is that from?
Oliver Gray
1491 by Charles Mann
Jordan James
Tank you.
Adrian Murphy
It's shit like this that makes me wonder why my armano wish for the return of the aztecs. My people were brutalized by them for centuries and gladly accepted the Spanish offer of revenge. They wiped the aztecs off the face of the earth over 500 years ago, yet in modern day they claim to be descended from them? How? Not one was left alive!
Cooper Reed
pic related is the source
Read all the text visible in the image, not just the highlighted stuff
Jackson Miller
It's stupid retarded gangbangers who probably only know the Aztecs by name.
Chase Nelson
see 40,000 over the course of a couple of days is a clearly exaggerated number, i've seen somebody do the math for that figure before and it adds up to them having to kill like 3 people a second nonstop for that entire period of time.
plenty of the aztecs were still alive, especially from other city states in the empire besides tenochititlan. Also, while not aztec, there are literally pockets of Mayans who were never conquered and have continued to live in their tribes since precolumbian times to modern day, just doing trade with the colonies but otherwise having their traditions largely intact.
The issue is that the Maya civilization collapsed on it's own before anybody got to the americas, so those groups don't have records or anything of what the civilization and those city states were like either
Pic related shows a mexican that's ethnically very similar to precolumbian nahua peoples, which was the ethnic group the aztecs and their sub enthincities belonged to.
Tyler Cooper
Any recommendations as to good reads on Mexoamerican history? Or even any good documentaries to watch?
William Moore
Seconding this. I've read 1491 and would like something similar or more in depth. Not just mesoamerica but central and south as well
Nathaniel Stewart
I don';t have any book suggestions, but AskHistorians on plebbit is a pretty good resource since if you aren't an expert or don't post sources to back up your shit your post will get deleted.
They have links to good threads about mesoamerican stuff in their FAQ and a whole documentary/book suggestion list
Joseph Howard
Sounds like bullshit to me as it's equating the execution of criminals with sacrificial victims. Unless the claim is being made that Aztecs only sacrificed criminals, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Ian Edwards
The Maya are the one's that went extinct, there are still pockets of Aztec decedents that still speak the native tongue all across Mexico, to this day.
Isaiah Brown
Man, remember all those Maya who were forcefully resisting alien control and trying to establish an independent state in the Yucatán clear into the 1930s? Or the ones who make up 40% of the current Guatemalan population?
Cameron Torres
It's actually 2 per second, and who's to say the time was not exaggerated? Maybe it was over a week.
Nathan Turner
No, both the Nahuas and Maya still exist. Natural itself is the second most spoken language in Mexico and there's literally millions of Maya people today.
Ryder Mitchell
*Nahuatl
Sorry fuckin autocorrect
Austin Sullivan
Well, I guess you learn something new every day.
Lincoln Reyes
Guatemala has 42% of its population still using native languages today, although most speak Spanish as a way to communicate with each other and their less native neighbors.
Mayans had some brutal boxing rituals. Their costume is fucking rad too
Nolan King
>Fighting with sea shell boxing gloves
METAL AS FUCK
Sebastian Hughes
there were horses in the americas before european arrival. about 10-12k years before. clovis points took care of that along with a lot of other stuff.