How it would change Europe if Poland joined Axis in 1938?
Would Holocaust still happen? Would Hitler still lose in Russia?
Seems that if German offensive started in Polish Kresy instead of usual line, they would get a big head start into Russian territory.
There are Polish books about it, but I can't find any in English.
The Russians (Under Stalin's orders) moved all there forces to the new border and out of their defensive lines when they partitioned Poland. This lead to mass encirclement early in the war against Russia.
>How it would change Europe?
There are so many little details that would change the course of events drastically that we can only speculate.
Just a few
>no Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, as Stalin would interpret the alliance as a hostile action
>early USSR-West alliance
>Stalin now has a better pretext to invade Poland because it's a "Fascist" state, this time with Anglo-French approval
>WWII starts with USSR at the very beginning
>some factions within Poland will disagree with the alliance and attempt coups and secretly collaborate with the Allies
>you might get something like Operation Alaric or Panzerfaust were Poland would be occupied by Hitler and and some parts annexed to Germany
>Hitler would still eventually lose
>Poland would become a small soviet Republic, reduced to half or less of it's original size.
>Polish elites would be completely exterminated by the Soviets
>Germany might loose far less territory in the East and no population transfer.
All those books are masturbatory fantasy and absolute bullshit.
But I thought West wanted to use Hitler as a cannon against the Soviets?
Why so? It is a common knowledge that Poland got betrayed both by their allies and government/generals.
Majority of tanks, plans and artillery wasn't even used but just handed over to the Germans and Soviets.
planes*
>How it would change Europe if Poland joined Axis in 1938?
Things would be actually much better for the Soviets.
1. Polish army wouldn't help shit the Germans. The performance of the Eastern Front was hampered first and foremost by logistical constrains, not by the number of cunts fighting there. Polish army fighting alongside Germans would put even more strain on railroads.
2. Polish army was absolutely unprepared for any meaningful offensive action. Poland had no logistical preparation for supplying armies out of Polish borders.
3. Germany would meet Soviet army on the fortification lines built in 1930s, not exposed and stretched out like they did in 1941.
4. Without occupation of Poland and terrorizing Polish population, Germany would never be able to extract that many resources from Poland like they did in real life. German army wouldn't get that much food, equipment from Polish industry. German industry wouldn't get that much raw resources and workers, German farmers wouldn't get that much livestock and workers.
5. After beating the German Army back, the Soviet Army would enter Poland as openly hostile territory. They wouldn't pretend they come to liberate. They would rape, steal kill, and destroy. Poland would likely end up as a Soviet Republic with eastern borders like today and western borders like in 1938, provided that Czechoslovakia wouldn't get a share too.
Holocaust would still happen. Poland would be either bullied into it or taken over by some hardcore pro-Nazis with German backing (Hungary-style).
>They wouldn't pretend they come to liberate. They would rape, steal kill, and destroy
That's exactly what they did in real scenario.
>They would rape, steal kill, and destroy.
>Muh ebil Soviets meme
>Why so? It is a common knowledge
What constitutes "common knowledge" in Poland is usually nothing but a masturbatory fantasy concocted because Poles just love to think they suffer and are betrayed.
t. Pole
>that Poland got betrayed both by their allies
Poland would be betrayed if Western allies just shrugged when Poland was attacked. They instead declared war to Germany, even though they were just as unprepared as Poland.
> and government/generals.
All armies are trained for the previous war. Poland had army which had the Polish-Soviet war still in mind. There are obviously examples of scandalous behavior among commanders (Biernacki, Bortnowski etc), but the officer corps wasn't worse than in the rest of Europe. Actually, the officer corps performed quite well, much better than privates. They were massive desertions from the Polish army and many units disintegrated even before they met the enemy. But that's hush-hush in Poland today because we just love our fantasies about heroic nation that is continuously betrayed.
>Majority of tanks, plans and artillery wasn't even used but just handed over to the Germans and Soviets.
Bullshit. Polish equipment was mostly destroyed. The only weapons that the Germans or Soviets captured and used in larger quantities were Polish pistols and anti-tank riffles.
1/2
2/2
>That's exactly what they did in real scenario.
Nope, not on the same scale like they would if Poland was hostile. In Poland rapes and theft happened, but on rather isolated scale, completely non comparable to what happened on German soil. People just mentally copy+paste what happened in Germany onto Poland.
Poland experienced Soviet terror, there's no doubt about it. But the Soviet terror was extremely point-wise and was directed towards political enemies. It wasn't that Soviet soldiers entered a Polish village in 1945 and raped every woman, steal everything that wasn't nailed down and finale set the rest on fire. Instead, they would come directly toward the house of lads whom they suspected (almost everytime on basis of neighbors' denunciation) of anti-Soviet activity, take them and never return.
t. doesn't know shit about anything.
In 1939 Soviets raped children, women, everything that moved, they also stole everything they could laid their hands on.
Polish army wasn't cavalry based. They had Renault tanks which were better than German tankettes at that time.
Majority of newly bought stuff was waiting for Poland in Romania.
Polish mobilisation was slowed down by UK and France.
Poles are just total retards with their inferiority complex. 1939 could've been played differently. - There are reports that Polish army Posen wasn't even getting any orders and gen. Kutrzeba was wandering around Posen while other armies were getting slaughtered, majority of Army staff also escaped to other countries, not to mention the Gov itself.
Poles got played like niggers, as usual.
>t. doesn't know shit about anything.
Really? Let's see.
>In 1939 Soviets raped children, women, everything that moved, they also stole everything they could laid their hands on.
As far as I remember, I wrote about 1945 all the time.
Kindly point out where I wrote about Soviets entering Poland in 1939.
>Polish army wasn't cavalry based. They had Renault tanks which were better than German tankettes at that time.
Again, where did I wrote that? Either show me or stop making things up, kiddo.
>Majority of newly bought stuff was waiting for Poland in Romania.
Bullshit. You are making this up. Again. Ordered airplanes didn't even left ports and the Western allies stopped them when they realized that the Polish campaign is a foregone conclusion.
>Polish mobilisation was slowed down by UK and France.
And? I do not know about you, but I don't have a crystall ball and I can't guess what will happen tomorrow. Same applies to people who lived in 1939. They couldn't know for sure that Germans will inevitably attack. That's why they tried to negotiate. Poland was asked to postpone mobilization because that was intended as a sign of goodwill.
>Poles are just total retards with their inferiority complex. 1939 could've been played differently. - There are reports that Polish army Posen wasn't even getting any orders and gen. Kutrzeba was wandering around Posen while other armies were getting slaughtered, majority of Army staff also escaped to other countries, not to mention the Gov itself.
You have to be shitting me. Read something on the subject beyond masturbatory shit produced today by our pop culture. For example Waldemar Rezmer "Armia Poznan". There was action since day 1 and Armia Poznan even crossed the German border and bombarded German position near Frauenstadt (Wschowa).
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>Finally, when the Third Reich prepares for a decisive battle in the West, the Polish Army invades Germany. Surprised, the Wehrmacht does not fight the Poles, who capture Silesia, Eastern Prussia, and Western Pomerania, cutting off all lines of communication with German units which had remained in occupied Soviet Union. In August 1945, the Western Allies capture Berlin, Hitler commits suicide, while Polish armored divisions clear the Baltic States. Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia join the federation of Poland, Belarus and Ukraine: "The dream of Marshall Józef Piłsudski has become reality. Poland emerges as Great power. During a peace conference, which takes place at Polish Baltic Sea spa of Jurata, Winston Churchill, Harry Truman and Edward Śmigły-Rydz discuss the future of Europe".
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>Poles got played like niggers, as usual.
I believe I must deliver it like to a child. You see, Blitzkrieg was something new and completely unknown beforehand. Before WW2 it took days, even sometimes weeks, before war became actually hot. In WW1 it took a week before clashed were no longer just fire exchanges between border posts.
Poland wasn't adequately prepared for Blitzkrieg. The command chain was too slow, the mobilization was too late and too slow. But you cannot blame anyone for that. To blame anybody that wasn't prepared for something unknown beforehand is pure insanity. Plain and simple.
XDDD ebin
If someone doesn't know. is an excerpt from one of these Pure masturbatory fantasy written by pic related.
>Polish intellectuals
I must really hurt you
I must've* really hurt you.
t. another pole, don't fucking embarrass us
>What's present continuous.
Please go away play some vidya or go fap to Kukiz.
>He fell for the soviets were good meme
Smh desu
>>What's present continuous.
Certainly not "I must really hurt you".
Now, now, user. The mark of a great man is that he's not reluctant to admit what his mistakes were. Accept them and move on.
Now I noticed that i missed "t" after "I" and that was supposed to be "It".
Great job, grammar police.
This explanation would've worked flawlessly if only you hadn't posted it fifteen minutes after the initial mistake.
Some people do have life beyond browsing Veeky Forums
>I have a life, heh
Right, whatever.