When downshifting, what's the proper time to rev match?

When downshifting, what's the proper time to rev match?

>clutch in
>change to lower gear
>blip throttle
>clutch out

Or

>clutch in
>move stick to neutral
>rev match in neutral
>select lower gear
>release clutch

If you're not double clutching it doesn't matter.

you basically described the same process twice

if you have the clutch in, it doesn't matter where the shifter is, you're essentially in neutral

As previously mentioned, if you're double declutching, it'd be

>clutch in
>neutral
>clutch out
>blip
>clutch in
>in gear
>clutch out

Doesn't really matter if it's not an old car with weak or lack of syncros

Wrong. Clutch in or out makes a difference in neutral. No power is delivered to the wheels in either case, but with the clutch out, you're still spinning the input side of the transmission.

>what's the proper time to rev match?

never, because your gearbox is designed to work without rev matching.

It's just a pointless technique to feel like le ebin race car driver. Don't worry, you'll soon grow out of it

Why the fuck do you americans always treat driving stick like rocket science.

Most of the times I dont even blip the throttle as ill just pick a gear that matches my new intended speed.

>Driving in Netherlands
>Driving on highway at 100 Km/h
>Take exit
>Directly face a bend with an adviced speed of 30Km/h
>Brake strong yet smooth in 5th
>Clutch in at about 50Km/h
>Brake a bit more and shift to 2nd
>Clutch out and gas through the bend
>Start accelerating and upshift because limit is now 80Km/h
>Think about what dickhead designed this shitty exit.

Why would you want to? Afraid you're going to spin out while downshifting on your way to school in your mums corolla?

confirmed never driven manual

Rev matching is completely unnecessary in a synchronised transmission.

durrrrr rhurrrrrrr ga durrrrrr what is clutch braking

enjoy ur le herky jerky ride retard

yeah nah mate never driven manual
never driven a car either right?

You don't say, although OP didn't specifiy reingaging the clutch in neutral.

That's why you brake before changing gear you moron. It's not fucking rocket science.

I've driven manual all my life because autos are far less common over here than in the states. But go ahead and tell us in your expert opinion why rev matching is necessary in cars with a synchronised transmission.

god id hate to be in the car with you driving
how many clutches a week do you go through?

Jokes on you, I've been driving manuel my whole life.
Such is life in yuropoorland

What's so hard about braking before you need to change gear as said? This is common sense to anyone who drives manual.

ITT: Ameritards using outdated techniques because they can't cope with the fact that most of the world (including women, old people and stupid kids) drives manual without a problem so they need to pretend to be race drivers.

ever heard of engine braking?
stick to automatics kid

>shifting to a low gear at high speed in order to slow your car down quickly

Pretty sure you've never driven a car at all.

>When downshifting, what's the proper time to rev match?
>>clutch in
>>change to lower gear
>>blip throttle
>>Tip fedora
>>clutch out
>Or
>>clutch in
>>move stick to neutral
>>rev match in neutral
>>select lower gear
>>release clutch
>>Tip fedora

...

If you shove the car into a lower gear without the appropriate amount of RPM you're working the syncros. This isn't a problem initially, but doing this for long periods of time will gradually wear them and eventually you will have a crunch ( unless you shift perfectly ). The correct process for shifting with a synchronised gearbox is to:
>press in the clutch
>in one swift motion move the gearstick through neutral and blip the RPM to the correct speed for the lower gear making sure the correct RPM is reached before the lower gear is selected
> presto you're in gear
People saying that you don't have to worry about abusing your syncros generally can't shift correctly, or are under the false impression that they won't wear out prematurely.

synchros wont shit themselves unless they're really fucking thrashed
case in point
>nan buys car with new gearbox at 160000
>by 195 or so she's fucking molested the gears so hard you've gotta shift back and forth to get into first
meanwhile my shitbox with 250k on the clock shifts smooth as butter

Probably safe to assume different gearboxes have stronger and weaker synchros.
My old SW20 with 220k had a very worn set of synchros from its previous owner of 6 years. Good way to learn to shift properly though

yeah but we both had the same car lmao
only difference was mine had AC and 4 doors

Stukje tussen Halfweg en Haarlem-zuid? Kom broeder we gaan broezen.

So you do one of two things everytime you shift...
1. Engage gear that would be at idle rpm, like 6th gear at 30 mph. And then lug the every living shit out of the motor.

2. You release the clutch at idle rpm and the rpm immediately jumps so normal rpm like 2500rpm. So you are putting extreme amount of wear in your clutch every shift.

So you fuck your motor or your clutch everytime you downshift just because you are lazy or too dumb to blip the throttle.

confirmed busrider

Because it's fun.
Also allows for smoother gear changes.

Dude I'm a mechanic in a country where 90% of the cars are manual and i've seen cars treated like absolute shit and with hundreds of thousands of miles on them. I can probably count on two hands the cars that had problem with synchros (out of the hundreds if not thousands of cars I've serviced) and those were usually the result of parts being faulty from the factory, grossly neglected maintenance or abuse derived from people insisting on driving with clutches worn to shit.

Synchros exist specifically so you don't have to rev match when changing gears, that's their sole purpose and they do a damn good job at that.

Worrying about wearing synchros is really just pointless paranoia, it's like changing oil every 1000 miles to avoid premature wear on the engine: yes, it may work, but you are just wasting time for an extremely small return that you won't be able to measure anyway.
Synchros, and gearboxes in general, usually outlast the vehicle itself.

I guess you live in a mostly automatic country where old autos like to shit themselves on a regular basis and you are projecting that sense of fragility on manual boxes.

confirmed too butthurt that women and kids all over the world can drive stick flawlessly so you need a special snowflake technique to feel better at doing an extremely mundane task

rev matching isnt to save synchros you genius holy fuck

Between clutch in and clutch out, you should be doing both the shift and the rev match at the same time to quicken the gear change. It should be one fluid motion.

Double-declutching is only necessary on gearboxes with worn or no synchromesh.

I still double-declutch on my teeny little eco hatch because I hate the feeling of pressing the shifter against the gear on the downshift until it eventually crunches in.

Jazeker ja, valt bijna niet te missen he.

You are a mechanic...
And you think that releasing the clutch after down shifting is only for the syncros?

ffs. You like jerking the shit out of your car when you release the clutch? Or you just want to change the idiot's worn clutch at 60k miles.

then what is it for? to save 1/10 of a second of clutch wear every gear change?

seriously, just tell me it is because you like the feeling of nailing the perfect rev-match and that it makes you feel more like dagumi, because I refuse to believe you are seriously convinced that you will be able to extend the lifetime of your clutch by any noticeable margin.

also read the post I quoted you massive sperg, it was specifically talking about synchro wear

If the only way you have to avoid jerking the car while downshifting is by revmatching then you are extremely shit at driving and you should consider taking some driving lessons again.

only an idiot will consistently jerk the car when downshifting normally

You are a fucking idiot. Simply rev matching as you described isn't going to do a thing for or against your syncros. Clutchless changing or double clutching maybe, but as it sounds like you've heard before, is unecessary. Shift normally, without rushing the syncros, and they'll outlive the car. They fail prematurely when you think you're trying to drive like Ken Block hence why the majority of abused vehicles out there have a notchy second gear, because that's usually the one that gets abused the most.

Broeder, gaan we nog broezen?

>trying to have more fun while driving is a bad thing

>2. You release the clutch at idle rpm and the rpm immediately jumps so normal rpm like 2500rpm. So you are putting extreme amount of wear in your clutch every shift.

Dude, that is literally what the fucking clutch is there to do - allow the engine and drivetrain to reach the same speed smoothly. Unless you're doing something dumb like shifting to 2nd at 55mph without rev matching or letting the clutch out super-slowly and riding it, your clutch isn't going to suffer any appreciable wear through normal gear changes.

Yes, an unusual shift like 5th-2nd at 50mph it is necessary to blip the throttle, but for ordinary gear changes during ordinary driving, you should not need to blip your throttle ever.

Any jump of more than 1000 rpm will make the car jerk a bit unless you release the clutch slowly which is bad as well.

I don't understand you guys. Rev matching reduces stress on all drive train components especially your clutch. There is absolutely no down side to rev matching. Do why the fuck are you guys so against it. This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

>Any jump of more than 1000 rpm will make the car jerk a bit unless you release the clutch slowly which is bad as well.
No it doesn't, learn to drive

>Rev matching reduces stress on all drive train components especially your clutch.
There are springs on the clutch or on the flywheel for the specific purpose of damping vibrations so the gearbox doesn't shake itself apart

>There is absolutely no down side to rev matching.
There is no downside in doing clutchless shifts either, if done perfectly, and it spares even more strain on the clutch than revmatching, but it's still pointless.
So do changing oil every 2k miles to save wear on the engine or not steering your wheels when the car is standing still to save wear on balljoints and the steering rack; all things that are technically healthy for your vehicle, but that give so little returns compared to the loss of time they cause that it's not even worth it.

Nobody says you shouldn't rev match, the point is that it's just pointless because there is technology in place that makes that thing wasteful and obsolete.

>I don't understand you guys
They are either trolling, uneducated on the topic or both. Their goal is most likely to waste your time, so I recommend ignoring them.

>speed and rpm are the same thing
You heard it here first folks

True if you don't care about ride comfort.

Are you dumb, or only pretending to be dumb?

if youre driving anything recent
>clutch in
>rev match
>switch gears
Idk how you could do it any other way, makes you sound like you've never driven manual

>the point is that it's just pointless
If I don't rev match even at lower RPMs the engine braking is so severe it's like you stomped on the brakes. It would easily get me rear ended when I have to downshift in traffic. The point where I can just put it into gear and let out the clutch is where the engine will start to lug so it's only an option when coming to a stop or really slow moving traffic.

all people are saying is engine braking is hard on your components. best method is obviously heel toe downshift where you brake and rev match at the same time.

You still can't prove it's useful or explain why no driving school on earth teaches you the technique if it's so vital for your car.

Let's face it, you only do it because you think it makes you a more skilled driver and you like the feeling, everything else is just uneducated opinion on something you can't even begin to understand

This. Rev match if you want, it's not going to cause you any harm, but realistically in a car that isn't driven hard, your synchromeshes will outlast the car itself and you're not going to extend the life of your clutch by any appreciable amount.

drive a manual and come back

not an argument, I drive a manual and have been since I got my license. my car doesn't jerk when I downshift and the last time I had to replace a clutch was at 190k km on my previous car and I never had the need to rev-match other than trying to emulate le vintage race car driver.

do you have proof that rev matching is useful or are you just going to say that I can't drive a manual?

i bet people laugh at you when you downshift and your car starts jerking back and forth lmao

>still no proof

how cute, I bet everyone admires you instead for doing something pointless and outdated, uh?

ITT: Rocket science americans telling people that actually drive manuals they are wrong.

did your buss pass expire mate? fucking embarassing yourself at this point

I drive a manual every single day in life pal. Never had to have a clutch change in any car I've owned, and the only time I've seen cars with trashed synchros are the ones owned by yobbos that have been ragged for their whole life, by which point the synchros are the least of its problems.

This.

didnt even read your post lol

>there are people that can get THIS mad for losing internet arguments

see

ffs rev matching is useless unless you're driving a pre-70s truck

it's like the american autotists need to overcompensate their total lack of manual skill

how can one person be so wrong?

>damage controlling this hard

It's ok m8, we are all anonymous here, you can keep impressing your friends with your race car techniques, they'll never know you have been annihilated so hard today on Veeky Forums

who writes this shit lol

you are confusing rev matching with double clutching... rev matching is needed otherwise you shock your drivetrain trying to downshift into second at 80kmh and spin into a tree
stop posting

>i bet people laugh at you when you downshift and your car starts jerking back and forth lmao
sounds like youre the one who cant drive manual if this happens at all
top kek

your first example is correct

forget about everything else in this thread.

>well racing drivers do it therefore no one else is allowed to do it ever!
jesus christ

fun fact: racing drivers don't do that anymore, the car blips by itself

fun fact: only expensive ass cars do this and on cheaper cars like the corvette stingray or 370z its trash

when I said "racing drivers" I was also talking about legit race cars, with sequential dog boxes,

rev matching is literally what the car will do on it's own because it has synchros yes, but not doing it manually will wear them out much faster than normal.

> That's why you brake before changing gear you moron.

....what?

what if my brakes are faded because of a long downhill and i want to engine brake to cool them off?


this really depends on the car, i guess with some cars the difference between gears is small, but not all of them. either way, it's fun and saves your from excessive synchro wear, the synchros are there to back you up, not to bear the brunt of the entire machine.

This is exactly what I do in my mustang because I hate the jerky shit when I downshift. I imagine from reading this thread it isn't damaging shit.

>Any jump of more than 1000 rpm will make the car jerk a bit unless you release the clutch slowly which is bad as well.
You're an idiot. Unless your thrust bearing is knackered, the clutch is not only capable of, but designed to progressively clamp and apply friction over its full travel. Gently slipping it to either get a car moving or bring an engine RPM back up to speed isn't going to hurt it.

This

>all these retards who dont know what engine braking is
how did these mentalists get licenses?

Initial D, fast n furious, need for speed influence

It's not necessary in a straight line or everyday driving.

It's typically used on the track to prevent the rear tires from breaking loose due to a sudden torque shift while changing gears in a corner exit.

So you don't like smooth shifting and taking an extra second for the engine to wind back up?

Burzum

oh man, this thread. Well baited, OP.

hahahah you're fucking retarded

yes the trans is capable of making the shift but it will be *extremely* jerky and uncomfortable.

Yeah if you are shit at driving

Literally just downshift to the lower gear, blip to proper RPM, and declutch.

All other answers are wrong or posted by people still driving cars from a century ago - fucking Cadillac was doing synchromesh in the 20s-30s.

rpm is correlated to speed.

>oversteer
>sudden torque increase in FWD

also this:
You don't want to be shift locking when entering corners at high speeds unless you're doing that on purpose. In general it's a good practice to get into for track days, but if you're in normal everyday traffic, you're not going to have a use for it unless you want smooth comfy shifts.

>2nd at 80km/h
Not revmatching would be the least of your problems

Most cars, even econoboxes can do 80kph in 2nd, which you might do on track days, but it's not the kind of thing anyone who cares about the life of their engine or transmission is going to be doing.

So either way, rev matching is still a harmless but useless practice for daily driving.

Go drive your car at 80mph, put the clutch in then put it in first and tell me again it doesn't matter where the shifter is.

>not understanding that you'll be spinning your input shaft and nothing else