What's the key to achieving that smooth, "riding on a cloud" experience? I don't race or anything...

>I refuse to believe that in all the years of automotive Innovation, nobody's found a middle ground between cancelling our street imperfections and maintaining a decent handling vehicle.

This is literally exactly what the manufacturer did when they designed your suspension. If your car is old maybe replace your shocks with OEM replacements, if not maybe there's a suspension package offered from factory you can upgrade to. After market suspension exists for people who want to focus on something OTHER than the middle ground between comfort and handling, this usually means focusing on handling at the expense of comfort but sometimes it means something like air bags for a desired look or ride height.

>megan racing coilovers
AHAHAHAHA OH MAH ISHYGDDT

really your best bet is getting bags or coilovers with adjustable dampening and testing what works best
full soft isn't luxurious as you might think and full stiff is gonna rattle your bones
you'll never get the best of both worlds though
then again, bags have come a long way

Adaptive suspension (active, or electronically controlled damping (multi-mode damping, or magnetorheological))
Air bag suspension
Talking to a suspension builder to choose a spring rate and custom valving to suit your needs

Are you looking for a physics lesson or a shopping list? How willing are you to DIY? What car do you drive, and how do you drive it?

Weight, wheelbase and shocks with slow ass rebound. Old land yachts ride so nice because they weigh 5k+ lbs, trucks also ride nice because they weight so much. Your 2700lb civic won't be riding like a cloud anytime soon.

This makes sense. The whole reason this thread came about is because my car is pretty old and I wanted to lower it a bit for looks mostly, but I'm already unsatisfied with the rigidity of the stock suspension as it is now, and I'm concerned that an aftermarket suspension is just gonna make it more rigid.
The more you guys mention bags the more curious I am. How do they stack up against adjustable coilovers in terms of durability? Do they have a limit to how fast you can go with them? (90% of my driving is at or above 80mph)

Should I just focus on finding a good coilovers setup? And are coilovers the only part of the suspension that dictates smoothness? What about tires, sway bars, braces, etc?

An informed shopping list, basically a "what and why." I'd prefer to do 100% of the work myself but understand there's better equipped people around. It's a 2006 is250, and I drive it relatively hard compared to most people I see. 80 seems to be my minimum regardless of the speed limit unless it's construction or school zones, and I typically slow down to about 30-40 when turning. It's a fun car, but I want more out of it.

gonna piggyback here; the car i got recently feels like im sitting on a brick whenever im driving
i have no idea about anything related to suspension or coilovers or ANYTHING
please assist with something

YT suggests that airbags are only marginally more expensive than coilovers and can offer the same amount of practical performance. I'd still like to know more about them and what differentiates a good set from a bad one, their durability and maintenance needs, etc. From everything you guys have said and everything I've seen, they seem to be exactly what I'm looking for. I just don't know where to start in terms of manufacturers, maintenance, reliability and instillation.

Bump

try stiffening the structure up, leave the springs alone

I'm on air AMA

Explain to me how this will help
What brand?
Would you suggest it for the aforementioned applications?
What was the installation process like?
What's maintenance like?
What drawbacks have you ran into?
What's the fastest you've run them at?
Can you speed with them inflated?
If no, why not?
What advice can you give on running them?
Have you had any durability issues?

I have more questions, but this will do for now

If you lower your car it will be stiffer unless you want to bottom out more often.

This is where bags come Into play, right? Only lowered when you want them to be, raised when driving and raised even higher when speedbumps arise. But how fast can you go in the middle stage without overworking them? And durable are they really? And what are some good companies and ones to avoid?

>What's the key to achieving that smooth, "riding on a cloud" experience?

The old cadillac benchlike seats were very cloudlike. Stiff bucket seats make a much stiffer bumpy ride.

Bags will make your car ride like an LS400. It's a very floaty experience.

If you're looking for coilovers that will give you handling and a smooth ride look into Ohlins Road and Track. They have a dual flow valve that improves rebound characteristics so you can have good dampening.

>What brand?
Universal Air 5 gallon tank, Viair 444c compressor, Bag Riders manual management, Only Charged Dubs front control arms, lines, and fittings, and Bilstein sport shocks
>Would you suggest it for the aforementioned applications?
Yes
>What was the installation process like?
I had my mechanic do it, took a little over a week because he found out the strut mounts were shot and had to wait for parts.
>What's maintenance like?
Drain the tank once a month or so to clear out any trapped moisture, if you have a water trap it's not as often. Highly recommend a trap if you are in a humid climate.
>What drawbacks have you ran into?
Other than being expensive to install, none. It does put extra draw on your electrical system though.
>What's the fastest you've run them at?
70mph
>Can you speed with them inflated?
Yes
>What advice can you give on running them?
If you want a soft ride use OEM shocks and struts, and make sure you get a compressor silencer.
>Have you had any durability issues?
Absolutely none. If it's a quality kit installed right you'll only need to worry about moisture in the system and eventually replacing the compressor for safety.

So they don't replace your OEM shocks??
Being in south Florida it's pretty humid here, how much does a water trap and silencer cost?
Also is there any cost in draining the tank or is it similar to getting a propane tank refilled? (Sorry, I have absolutely no knowledge of this.)
Could you put the part that goes in your trunk under your passenger seats?
What distinguishes a good kit from a bad one?
Is it a process you can complete at home or is a mechanic completely necessary?
Is the battery drainage significant enough to worry about?

Thanks for your info user, I'm gonna be looking into them all day today. Just don't have a computer so it's hard for me to do any organized research.

Megan has been around since the early 90s

They were trash then, too.

Your best upgrade would probably be dotching the IS, and buying an LS instead.

Any mercedes will fit the bills.
They have progressive suspension even on the chepeast C-Class and it works wonderfully.

I'm not getting rid of my car lol, I've grown pretty attached to it. I'd much rather put the cost of a new Mercedes into my Lexus.

>I wanna feel the road

Want to feel the road but the road is too shit? Just get torson bar.

>handle like a go kart

Except go kart tracks are not low quality government wage slave maintained roads.

>drove with seized rear suspension for like a year (in an fwd)
>got it repaired
>miss that rock solid feeling

>So they don't replace your OEM shocks??
Depends on the kit and the car, some give you the choice of upgraded dampers like mine did, some re-use your OE dampers or use a universal shock, and some don't have any and leave it up to you to figure it out.
>Being in south Florida it's pretty humid here, how much does a water trap and silencer cost?
Water traps are cheap, usually $30-$50. Silencer kits are usually under $100 and sometimes come with your compressor but mine didn't.
>Also is there any cost in draining the tank or is it similar to getting a propane tank refilled? (Sorry, I have absolutely no knowledge of this.)
Totally DIY, takes like 5 minutes tops. There should be a drain plug on the air tank that you can carefully unscrew to release all of the air.
>Could you put the part that goes in your trunk under your passenger seats?
You could go with a smaller air tank but it means you will be running your compressor more. Not necessarily a bad thing but it can be annoying to some people.
>What distinguishes a good kit from a bad one?
Go with an established company (Bag Riders, Slam Specialties, etc.) most offer replacement parts for all of their kits as well so even if you decide to piece together your own kit to save some cash you can still get quality parts.
>Is it a process you can complete at home or is a mechanic completely necessary?
If you can get your suspension off then you can probably do it yourself, the hardest part is running the lines to all 4 corners and hooking up the management system.
>Is the battery drainage significant enough to worry about?
Not unless your battery is close to dying, then again I have a pretty simple management system with no sensors so that could cause more draw.

>What's the key to achieving that smooth, "riding on a cloud" experience?

You should NOT focus solely on air suspension. You should address all parts of the system that influences your perception of ride.
-- Your tires are a major part of the softness of ride your entire car feels. You have to give up your low profile tires. Stiff sidewalls also add to a stiffer ride, so you will switch to touring tires instead of your ultra performance tires.
-- Your lower suspension is part of the softness of ride transmitted to the unibody above it.
-- You require a riding on the cloud experience and that means adding another element between that lower suspension and your unibody to absorb small amounts of jarring vibration. That is typically done with airbags.
-- Your seats are a major part of the softness of your perception of ride.

You furthermore contradict your riding on the cloud experience by saying that a car that handles well is important. As others have said, the designers for your specific car have already designed it that way. For a car to have "everything" as you require means a redesign of the unibody, the suspension, and probably a different and more limited choice of tires.

Maintenance is more involved and cost is higher than coilovers.
Regular purging of moisture from the compressor is a must, it doesn't always cycle it out correctly especially if you live in a humid area.
They never ride as stiff as coilovers, performance wise you pay more for less but have adjustable height with the press of a button.
If you're after a more soft suspension bags can do that but you will pay more, numbers vary on how long you want the bags and compressor to last.
Also pick one
>handles good
>rides like a cloud
Refer to all American cars from the 50's-70's.

>wage slave maintained roads
Depends on the government. The US pays its construction workers a lot of money.

The answer to your question is more ground clearance (if insufficient) - should at least have 50 milimiters of wheel travel before it its the bumpstop. Then fairly soft, perhaps progressive springs. Finally firm low speed rebound damping, little or none low speed damping in bump, soft high speed damping in both directions at high speeds. At least 45 or 40 section tires, taller profile is better from a ride/handling perspective but lower profile tires are more responsive and more stable at higher speeds.

If you dislike body roll, stiffer sway bars front and back (reinforcing sway bar mounts is necessary more often than you'd think), keeping in mind the car will be much more nervous on bumpy roads but will still take speed bumps well. Removing bushing compliance, particularly in the steering joints, can make a real difference in terms of steering feel and precision, but replacing suspension bushings with polyurethane or rose joints is a step to far though - maybe you can get away with removing subframe bushings though..

Air suspension can work well if you intend to use the car on track or around the cones since the lower CG can make a difference, but only if the alignment doesn't go to shit in the lower position.

Alignment can make a real difference; a little toe out in the front can make a car noticeably more responsive initially, although max grip will suffer a bit. Normally cars have far too much kingpin inclination and too little camber, meaning on the slow corners they tend to understeer because the front tire gets into positive camber when the driver turns the wheel.

French cars tend to have the best ride handling compromise.

I like old American cars, but I would NOT describe 50s - 70s American cars as having good handling.

I'd even consider that category possibly the worst handling of all time

and yet our roads still suck

>I'd even consider that category possibly the worst handling of all time
That's what he's saying. Comfort comes at the Cost of handling and vice versa.

So then why does a pickup truck get that bouncy "ox cart" sensation in the rear?

>More ground clearance
Got it
>Soft progressive springs
Leaves are progressive & reasonably soft
>At least 45 or 40 section tires
I think you mean aspect ratio, but most trucks are like 60-75 aspect ratio

So is it really all down to the damping? Or is it the solid axle?

Usually it's a combination of blown dampers and no lateral locating linkage.

And assign them a timeframe, like 4 years, to complete road construction. So they stand around on the payroll and smoke, eat, and play on their phones until somebody inquires about their progress.

At least that's how it works down here in FL, they love the money and hate the work. As long as the job gets done and they get paid, it's a win-win for them.

>Switch to touring tires instead of ultra performance
This actually makes a lot of sense, but would that compromise traction? I've never put much thought into my tires, but thinking back on it, I've never been impressed by them either.

how do you find a tire that performs well in the rain, rides smooth, has good traction, performs well in the 80-140mph range and can handle corners at 30-40mph? Also I'm pretty terrified of hydroplaning, but my driving habits wouldn't suggest that. Do tires determine the odds of doing so?

I feel like it's a mixture of of width, height, composite and tread. But if I'm followingwhat you're saying, the manufacturerhas already determined they "ideal" balance for my particular car.

You can replace the bags and compressor though right? Or do you have to buy a whole nother kit when they shit the bed?

that's something somebody who has never driven a mercedes would say

> At least 45 or 40 section tires
I was following you until you said this, then you lost me. What does it mean?

>If you dislike body roll, stiffer sway bars front and back (reinforcing sway bar mounts is necessary more often than you'd think), keeping in mind the car will be much more nervous on bumpy roads but will still take speed bumps well.
I do dislike body roll, but I don't exactly want my car to spaz out at 100mph because I hit a dip in the road or a puddle. Does every car have stock sway bars? If not, then will simply putting sway bars on and not making them stiff be sufficient to reduce body roll?

>Alignment can make a real difference; a little toe out in the front can make a car noticeably more responsive initially, although max grip will suffer a bit. Normally cars have far too much kingpin inclination and too little camber, meaning on the slow corners they tend to understeer because the front tire gets into positive camber when the driver turns the wheel.

This makes a lot of sense, but what about the rear?

Let air out of the tires.

>leaves are progressive and reasonably soft.
Leaf springs are progressive, but they are not reasonably soft on pick up trucks. The rear axle on of of those has to cope with 2 or 3 times it's usual weight when fully loaded, and if you make the rear end too soft it drops down to the floor. The tires themselves are also stiff enough to cope with a full load, so they too stiff when the pick up truck is unladen. A fully loaded pickup truck could be reasonably comfortable, but leaf springs have another problem which is friction between the leafs themselves; useful enough if you want to avoid using decent dampers, but the damping they provide has plenty of stiction so it's not of very good quality. Old luxury cars coped with it by using soft rubber mounts to isolate the cabin, but that doesn't help the wheels stick to the ground. Modern Corvette springs don't have this problem because there is only a single composite leaf in action.

> At least 45 or 40 section tires
Tire aspect ratio. If you have a 205 / 55 R16 tire, 205 is it's width in milimiters, 16 is the rim diameter in inches, and 55 is the aspect ratio meaning the tire thickness is 113 mm (205 x 0,55). I mentioned it because many people think lower profile tires as the performance modification, and end up surprised when their 225/35 tires give off a shitty ride and burst after meeting a pothole.Here's good comparison too see what i'm talking about:

caranddriver.com/features/effects-of-upsized-wheels-and-tires-tested

As for anti-roll bars, they shouldn't bring problems at speed; they are mostly felt at junctions, off camber roads, bumpy roads. Modern cars are so stiff that basically all of them have anti roll bars, but if they haven't adding ones will reduce body roll anyway. It's easy to find adjustable anti roll bars that you can set up to your liking though.

as for rear end alignment, i didn't mention it because it's not always adjustable, but the rules are similar; rear toe out makes the car oversteer and won't want to keep going straight (being used by rally cars that want to turn a lot at slow speeds) while rear toe in makes the rear more stable. Because rear toe out is dangerous at high speeds, you usually want to leave this alone. Negative camber is better for lateral grip, but on rear wheel drive cars too much negative camber can reduce traction.

Then you could also go into dynamic toe and camber control but that is going more into expert territory.

The answer? Ohlins, KW, Penske

High quality coilovers with expensive pricetags will be very comfortable without compromising performance.

They won't be comfortable like a 2 tonne AMG will due to physics, but they can get damn fucking close.

Fork out the money for good suspension, do not cheap out.

Thanks, I appreciate you user. So what would you suggest to achieve the aesthetic of a tire that fits flush with the fender and takes up most of the wheel well? Pic related

After hearing what everybody's had to say, I realize that a more realistic goal is simply achieving a certain look, a wider more aggressive stance with a clean profile, without making the ride quality/handling any worse than it already is.

From what I've gathered:
>Should maintain 2" of ground clearance while driving
>Stick with thicker tire aspect ratio
> bag kit with compression silencer and water trap
>low rebound dampeners
>More negative camber
>Adjustable Anti roll bars

This should be good right?

Thanks, I'll look into this user. I think my Lexus is around 1.7 tons, so there's light at the end of the tunnel, right? :^)

semi-related, but,

Is a stiff suspension (like a track car would have) bad for your shocks/struts/control arms?

I've got a 45,000 mile used car that probably needs bushings replaced. I wonder if it has to do with the stiff suspension

So I read the link you posted, good info to keep in mind, but I'm not really sure how to apply it. Logically a lighter wheel than stock will be beneficial, and make for wiggle room to increase the tire size. But there's still the aspect ratio to consider, I'll have to work the numbers to find what suits me best.

But it didn't really speak on tire width too much. I really like the look of a wide aggressive stance on a car, and I've heard there's benefits in terms of handling but idk if that's true or not. How do you achieve it? Is there a way to do it that's compatible with everything else we've discussed? Also what downsides, if any are there in having a wider stance? I say stance because idk if it actually requires a wider tire, some sort of spacer or both.

bump

Double bump

Should I just make a new thread related to tire dimensions, compisites, ratios and alignment?

>The US pays its construction workers a lot of money.
A lot of them stand around and chat or relax whenever I pass by construction sites. They are definitely overstaffed at the highway projects. The unionized contractor must have some justification on paper, but in real life, seeing how slow people walk, move, or do things is quite annoying. Because of the dawdling, things take longer, and of course they get paid by the hour. So at least 20% of the cost of the highway projects is thus spent and wasted from my guesstimate of a major local freeway bridge construction project in my city.

Yup. And then when it comes time to work it's half assed, because the quicker they're done the sooner they can go back to doing nothing

pretty much. Although if you want the tire to be flush with the fender you'll probably not get enough well travel unless you use air suspension to raise the car on the road.
If you don't want air suspension, you can compromise with damping that is less firm overall but actuates in both rebound and damping (without enough travel, rebound damping only slams the car into the bump stops), and selecting a big, progressive bump stop that can somewhat absorb bumps.

If the roads are very bad, yes. But typically what happens in those cases is that those components are under engineered from factory and simply can't cope with the weight of the car.

yes there are benefits to wider wheels (more grip, more responsive, less wear). But there are disadvantages too (more low speed understeer, more unsprung weight, less steering angle, worse aero). Using wider wheels with the other changes is not a problem, although particularly in small cars you can lose a lot of agility and ride quality with overly big tires, meaning it works on track but on road it feels worse.

As for a wide stance on the car, the biggest problems with that is suspension wear, since the forces on the control arms will be greater, and steering geometry since the scrub radius will increase (steering also gets heavier). On fwd and awd cars, big scrub radius = a lot of torque steer. Using spacers is not a good idea although it's the cheapest way, it's far better to use wheels with a deeper dish (bigger offset) even in terms of looks.