How many people did Stalin and co. really Gulag?

Most commies hate Putin for representing the bourgeois post-Soviet Russia

After 1992, Conquest actually changed his estimate to 20 million as well.

A total coincidence that this happened right after the Cold War ended and anti-communist propaganda was no longer necessary, I'm sure.

any number that gets produced under the current system of scholarship is going to be so flawed it's going to add fuel to the flames on either side

just like holocaust denialism. the 6 million figure is SO flawed and the result of blatant lies, and so because they refuse to acknoweldge the lies, it fuels neonazism. and because lies can't be acknowledged, scholars continue to tell MORE lies, which become EASIER to refute, and so neonazism grows.

it's the same situation in russia. it's the same situation with mao in china.

our scholastic system is just a method by which our politicians agitate foreign governments and instigate war by trying to take away their sovereignty. by instigating in the manner we do, we empower the WORST factions of their government, which in china are the maoists, and in russia are the denialists.

WE are doing that. we should really just take a step back.

the US has lost all credibility with pretty much every single foreign government/people on the planet.

we no longer have the moral authority to arbitrate discussions on how many people died in any given event.

>the 6 million figure is SO flawed
It's not.

>it fuels neonazism
Neonazis don't know anything about the holocaust because they don't read books written by historians. All their "knowledge" comes from Naonazi sites and high school. It's not even debatable.

Do you mind elaborating? What evidence do you have that the 6 million figure (actually 5.7 million, but it gets rounded in popular discourse) is systematically falsified? Note the systematically, obviously individual scholars make various mistakes, but that doesn't invalidate the consensus. Because otherwise it just sounds like anti-intellectual, anti-American concern trolling to me. Most of these scholars aren't even American (lots of Holocaust scholarship comes from Germans, and there are plenty of Russians working on Stalin-era stuff). Neither am I, BTW

Still a fucking lot. Muh 60 gorillian numbers are nonsense, but still easily in excess of a million, maybe as much a 5, depends on how you come down on the famine, which involves a good deal of ambiguity, and moral philosophy that reasonable people can disagree.

Potentially inaccurate figures don't fuel neonazism, because no one denies the Holocaust based on honest intellectual curiosity: they do so because they're anti-Semites. Even if the research was totally perfect, there would still be deniers.

>Soviet census
How reliable is that source?

6 million is a figure from their book of the apocalypse. it's been showing up in major news publications since before ww1.

if you aggregate studies, all of which have flawed parameters, you end up compounding standard error. so you increase alpha, at the expense of the data actually being useful (alpha increasing is generally good, but it can be cutting off your nose to spite your face.) this is one of the basics of research/survey data.

I think the point of history is to make sure that we preserve the FRAME of the conflict as well as the opinions of the differing sides. This never, once, happened with ww2. Immediately following ww2 the new deal apparatus took control of the entire european media, as well as the japanese and korean media. It produced the first worldwide consensus. Note that it wasn't voluntary.

I think we have strong reason to be heavily suspicious of scholarship concerning the period. Keep in mind that we were celebrating the communists as our friends. Do you trust that? because you shouldn't.

The holocaust did happen, but all the scholarship from the era is flawed, and holds up a political structure. the canon of that ideology is the thing you absolutely cannot attack. But nothing should be beyond questioning.

fwiw I speak 3 languages natively and I can assure you, in a way you will never understand, that anglo research completely fails to appreciate the concerns of foreign countries. we TELL them what to think.

Pretty reliable. Just because a totalitarian regime could lie, doesn't mean they did. They had plenty of reasons for wanting accurate statistics on the population. At most they might have lied in public announcements, but they would want the real figures for themselves. And now that the regime no longer exists and the archives are open, we can look and see what they were.

It's not simply a soviet census, it's a soviet census from a meme I ripped off of facebook. Double negative credibility makes it extra credible, right?

ah, right, we have a DUTY to lie to people because they're too stupid. therefore, we LIE to them to get them to accept the truth.

sounds just like the new deal press club

>Just because a totalitarian regime could lie, doesn't mean they did.
They were lying all the time in my country.

>that anglo research completely fails to appreciate the concerns of foreign countries
It's a number accepted in all Western countries, not only in the Anglosphere.

>Just because a totalitarian regime could lie, doesn't mean they did

>60 million

Nice inflated numbers

>famines are genocides

>6 million is a figure from their book of the apocalypse. it's been showing up in major news publications since before ww1.

That's just Neo-Nazi propaganda. Plenty of other numbers show up in news publications, but now the deniers just go back and cherry-pick anytime they mention 6 million in reference to Jews in order to make a point. If it appears more frequently than others, its because 6 million was the Jewish population of the Russian Empire in the early 20th century, which looked like the place where Jews were most under threat.

>if you aggregate studies, all of which have flawed parameters, you end up compounding standard error. so you increase alpha, at the expense of the data actually being useful (alpha increasing is generally good, but it can be cutting off your nose to spite your face.) this is one of the basics of research/survey data.

Except most Holocaust research is done on the basis of primary documents written by the Germans themselves, and not by aggregating secondary studies.

>Immediately following ww2 the new deal apparatus took control of the entire european media, as well as the japanese and korean media. It produced the first worldwide consensus. Note that it wasn't voluntary.

Lol, what the fuck is the (((new deal apparatus)))

>But nothing should be beyond questioning.

That's right, but there's a difference between actual critical thought and JAQing off based on tinfoil hat nonsense.

>fwiw I speak 3 languages natively and I can assure you, in a way you will never understand, that anglo research completely fails to appreciate the concerns of foreign countries. we TELL them what to think

Good for you, truly a top mind

I'm thinking your're a denier pretending to be concerned about the spread of Neo-Nazism in order to give your attempts at undermining Holocaust scholarship credibility.

I wasn't talking purely about the 6 million figure in that post.

I am east asian. Scholarship on the war still has close to zero conception of what was going on in asia at the time.

they can't even get industrial figures, large governmental factions, or motivations of leading figures correct. it's fucking embarassing.

what I'm tellng you is that anglo scholarship is primarily led by people with no fluency in the languages of the areas they're proclaiming to be experts in.

they have no idea what's going on. anywhere. they were declared experts because they belonged to the nation that won: USA.

funny how the foremost scholars on a war that took place in japan and germany primarily live 3k miles away in america and aren't even fluent in german or japanese.

sounds like a good way to start getting good numbers!

They are when a commie is criticizing capitalism.

Just because you lie about lots of things, doesn't mean you lie about everything. Even if they lied publicly, the government would need the accurate figures for its own use.

I think it's more likely that you're a person trying to whitewash them, than they not being liars.

I'm not a commie, I think Stalin was scum and certainly killed millions (how many exactly, I don't know).

If you think the Soviet government didn't collect accurate figures on its population, you are an absolute idiot. They would need to know:
>how many people are liable for conscription
>who lives where, to determined how allocate resources
>how many people are paying taxes and how much, and how many people are using specific services, for budgeting

All governments need to know these sorts of things, and a government with a command economy like the soviets needs to know even more.

IIRC that census is the one that specifically angered the Party because it didn't show the population growth they wanted. It's a figure they didn't like, but it made it out anyways.

I agree with this. They have a better idea of what's going on internally than we ever did or ever will, from the outside.

This is a pretty anglo way of thinking, that we undertand other complex cultures better than they themselves do, because they're obviously inferior, right?

I mean, some cultures ARE inferior. But the fact we didn't even see the collapse happening in the heat of the cold war is a pretty good clue that in this case, we never did understand what was going on. Those people who were consistently wrong about teh soviets for 40 years straight are STILL the ones in charge of the scholarship. Are we supposed to trust that they've gotten a ot better at their job since then?

The point isn't that they need information about their own society you retard. The point is that they have no reason to give out accurate information to their enemies.

Well the archives are open so we can see the figures they used themselves dumbass

>The census results were destroyed and its organizers were sent to the Gulag as saboteurs because the census showed much lower population figures than anticipated.[1]
Or maybe they didn't want to irritate Stalin.

Because it was impossible to edit population statistics after the fact.

What the fuck am I reading you can't be this retarded and biased.

>biased
/pol/ is biased. And uneducated. You should go there.

/pol/ is overall a higher quality board than here.

Well then what are you doing here? Go post on that "higher quality board"

>1926-1937
1926-1953*

>sixty million
20 million.

>calls someone out on their unwillingness to re-examine basic facets of an event whose basic facets have remained untouched for 70 years
>b-b-b-because some things are obviously true, not because of fact, but because they just are!
>go post somewhere else!
10/10 clever mate

>basic facets have remained untouched for 70 years

Lol, no historical event has had its basic facets questioned and studied more than the Holocaust

>basic facets have remained untouched for 70 years
Just stop posting.

Except that there are plenty of scholars from Germany or Japan or wherever else working on their own history that concur with the academic consensus.

And I don't know where you got the moronic idea that American historians studying German history or whatever don't speak the language. They almost invariably do. Many history departments require a language exam to get a PhD even.

Working on my history major and I need one to even get my bachelor's.

Well, questioning them is sort of the point of the thread.

can he do the one with the dissapearing hankichief???

Zero

>Lol, what the fuck is the (((new deal apparatus)))
I know it's a real small detail, but there was like...6 guys total, available to the U.S. Gov that spoke Korean. The idea that they could control the media at all there, nevermind fucking wanted to, is absurd.

nybooks.com/articles/2011/03/10/hitler-vs-stalin-who-killed-more/

It turns out that, with the exception of the war years, a very large majority of people who entered the Gulag left alive. Judging from the Soviet records we now have, the number of people who died in the Gulag between 1933 and 1945, while both Stalin and Hitler were in power, was on the order of a million, perhaps a bit more. The total figure for the entire Stalinist period is likely between two million and three million.