How did Indonesia managed to be irrelevant...

How did Indonesia managed to be irrelevant, despite being arguably one of the richest place and populated places on the planet?

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_killings_of_1965–66#Role_of_anti-Chinese_prejudice
academia.edu/2635467/A_genocide_that_never_was_explaining_the_myth_of_anti-Chinese_massacres_in_Indonesia_1965-66
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How did Indonesia become Muslim? I thought they were colonized by the Dutch. Were they already muslim by that time? When did islam even spread to Indonesia?

The Dutch didn't give a fuck about religion and even actually aided Islam, because ot was mostly Hindu and Buddhist princes that resisted them.

low iq combined with islam destroying the majority of the buddhist and hindus who were building monumental architechture, infrastructure, etc.

muslim traders arrived hundreds of years earlier and gave them a model for conquering the buddhist and hindu kingdoms who weren't particularly effective at warfare

islamic shithole nobody cares about minus a couple of tulip booms and some shitty environmental practices mining exploitations

>I'm gonna /pol/ up the place.

Iq comes as a result of having money, it isn't a cause of it.
It's more relevant than 99% of countries.

Irrelevant how? It was and still is an extremely important trade region connecting the Pacific and Indian Oceans. It just didn't have the chance to be as politically united and populous until modern statecraft and agriculture allowed it to clear away a lot of its terrain for high yield farms and have a way to unite a whole bunch of islands.

>iq is the result of having money
but money is a positional good

if being positionally wealthy was all that mattered, pre-dutch indonesian rulers had plenty of wealth, and their iq was still low

if wealth is absolute, as in, in terms of nutrition and medical care, modern day indonesians have better nutrition than 1920's americans, but it was the 20's generation in america that built the hydrogen bomb

you have an unclear idea of what you're discussing, whether it be neurological capacity, or wealth

Indonesia has basically no economy. Most of the country doesn't even have paved roads.

90% of the economy is farming and resources. Unlike malaysia they are not positioned geographically or politically to harness the bulk of asian growth.

the way you talk, every country in the world could be "relevant."

I speak bahasa indoensia btw. fucking fight me faggots

This.

Blame the Dutch, Sukarno, and to some extent Suharto.

Probably something to do with the people

the dutch are least to blame. suharto did good by purging the communists (the main thing the press loves to criticize him for) but did bad by suppressing the chinese, and encouraging the chinese genocide (which the western press ignores.)

he was bad, but the awful fucking reporting on the region makes westerners absolutely stupid as to how and why, and leads to the situation where the more "educated" you are on the issue, inevitably the more stupid you become, and the WORSE you make indonesia by tryign to help.

the death knell for indonesia was the chinese genocide. where in order to stay in power in a democracy full of thousands of languages, "elected" officials needed to weaponize islam to kill the chinese to build a stable political bloc. in order to escape indonesia the wealthy chinese allowed themselves to be bought via cash and protection by teh chinese. this ended indonesian sovereignty, whcih was probably a good thing anyway.

let them all starve.

No matter which way you slice it in a manner that can be given any credence, there are only about 180-300 countries in the world.

Therefore, all that needs to be done in order to show that your statement as-given is factually false, is to come up with 3-6 countries that are "more relevant" than Indonesia, whatever the quantitative measures of relevance are decided to be for the purposes of comparison and discussion. Let me suggest that such a list consists of a subset of:

USA, Russia, UK, France, Germany, Brazil, India, China, Japan, Australia.

From among these, it should be a simple matter to identify 3-6 that are more relevant than Indonesia, thus proving your claim false.

Indonesia GDP is 8th or 16th or thereabouts, depending on exactly which metric you check, so there's the money side. Although quality of life is not relevance as-such, it is an important component - Indonesia's reported HDI is a middling "medium" 0.684 , with a corresponding middling GINI.

Despite its huge population, Indonesia is not on the Eurasian supercontinent. It's off in the water.

Indonesia is nowhere near the nuclear conversation. Most of the above have the Bomb and/or are in a bomb-sharing club of some kind.

Pretty much the only thing that Indonesia has to recommend it in terms of relevance is its sheer population. What is a really great, pathbreaking bit of science that came out of Indonesia over the past sixty years?

From what I understand, the 1965 killings were portrayed in Chinese media as a progrom against Chinese, but weren't actually based on ethnicity to any appreciable extent.

Suharto brought in Western economists and consistent 5% a year economic growth for 30 years, but Japan was doing like 10% a year during the same period.

The main thing Suharto did that was bad was embezzling literally about a hundred billion dollars.

>kill millions of chinese
>people march door to door with machetes and hack bodies apart
>don't worry, it's not actually discrimination against chinese
>only people with brown skin can be discriminated against
okay lad

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_killings_of_1965–66#Role_of_anti-Chinese_prejudice

>Commentators have mistakenly claimed that hundreds of thousands of Chinese Indonesians were killed, but this number is certainly incorrect. The killings targeted members of the Communist Party of Indonesia, and few Chinese Indonesians were members. The best estimate is that around 2,000 Chinese Indonesians were killed (out of a total death toll of 500,000), with documented massacres taking place in Makassar and Medan and on the island of Lombok.[79] Robert Cribb and Charles A. Coppel noted that "relatively few" Chinese were actually killed during the purge while the majority of the dead were Indonesian Communists.[80] The death toll of Chinese was in the thousands while the death toll of non-Chinese Indonesians was in the hundreds of thousands. Balinese and Javanese made up the majority of people who were massacred.[76]

>holocaust denial legitimated by census numbers collected by the killers

this makes me angry but I'm not going to yell at you because you're an outsider and you're brainwashed

1. I hate communists, glad they're dead
2. the government is literally genocidal, but too incompetent to pave road or lay power linse, but you trust them to collect an accurate census?
3. in the wake of the killings, chinese willingly changed their names and switched locations n the country, most of them relocating to java. it's impossible to know at this point how many were killed, because the ones who weren't actively went into hiding.
4. the government pretends they all just hid, and that none of them were actually killed
5. we have a better picture of what happened in malaysia, which was basically the same. the muslims went house to house hacking chinese to death with machetes. their government STILL gloats about it

there was a genocide. millions of chinese were killed, and ALL chinese were forced to hide, switch their names, forget their language, darken their skin, etc.

it was a GENOCIDE.

What numbers should I be using?

Like, every source I can find is about the half a million mark, and states that ethnic Chinese made up somewhere under 5% of the dead.

I'm pretty sure that if there was a massive cover-up, the Army would be trying to avoid mentioning the half a million people killed.

there are no accurate numbers. the country was and still is a third world hellhole. people can't read or count. every 30 miles people speak a mutually unintelligible language. there was no way to establish a census of the general population, let alone the death toll.

killing half a million communists isn't a political problem.

the problem is that when villagers in places with no power, mail service, etc. run around villages killing chinese with machetes, there ARE no numbers or documentation.

go ahead, please, visit indonesia and talk to some village built along a terrace in a mountain pass after a 24 hour drive from the nearest train station and tell me if you think they are capable fo collecting information

the communist purges weren't the primary method of killing the chinese. this is part of the misconception.

>Iq comes as a result of having money,
Oh god, reddit has arrived.

Well, the historians I've looked at have said that the killings of Chinese were relatively limited, and that statements of "millions of dead Chinese" were simply unfounded in any evidence.

academia.edu/2635467/A_genocide_that_never_was_explaining_the_myth_of_anti-Chinese_massacres_in_Indonesia_1965-66

I've been using Coppel and Cribb as sources.

coppel is the extreme version of the event. literally no one says anything more extreme than him. that doesn't mean it is necessarily incorrect, but it does mean that it is a VERY extreme position.

I take the other extreme side

at the very least, some 100k chinese literally fled the country as a whole, and millions went missing, with several millions uprooting from their villages and changing their names.

I can't think of a single situation of this happening in HISTORY where milions weren't dying and being killed

but then again, you can't argue with holocaust deniers either

there was literally no way to tabulate any of those numbers aside from what we know about the population as a whole, and the total chinese population (whch was entirely uprooted and disappeared, never to reappear.) they're invented

>I can't think of a single situation of this happening in HISTORY where milions weren't dying and being killed

10 million people have fled Syria in the last five years

Sauce on millions of missing and a hundred thousand refugees?

death toll estimates range from 80k to 2 million. does that sound like good census to you? these are by GOOD researches. the wide range means that the numbers are fundamentally unreliable. if you understand how statistics works, the narrower you put a number range, the weaker the confidence interval. they can't be ore than 40% sure that 500k is the correct estimate, for one.

that's a background n stats for ya

A 1977 Amnesty International report suggested "about one million" PKI cadres and others identified or suspected of party involvement were detained.[56] Between 1981 and 1990, the Indonesian Government estimated that there were between 1.6 and 1.8 million former prisoners "at large" in society.[88] It is possible that in the mid 1970s, 100,000 were still imprisoned without trial.[89] It is thought that as many as 1.5 million were imprisoned at one stage or another.[90] Those PKI members not killed or imprisoned went into hiding while others tried to hide their past.[48]

this is straight from wikipedia. as many as a million and a half prisoners still exist from the event.

100k in the province of aceh alone are missing. that's just one fucking province.

>It's more relevant than 99% of countries.
.

These "sources" are in contrast to historical consensus.

Indonesia is a shithole due to the Malaysian migrants( from millenia ago) not killing the native brown skinned Australoids that lived in it that are cousins of New Guineans which also live in a shithole tropical state. All of the problems in Indonesia are caused by the natives being incapable of not causing rampant crime and pollution via mindless littering.

The Phillipines was one inhabited by Negritos but the South Chinese ancestors of Filipinos killed all of them but the ones in Negroes island.