Was Burgundy influential in late medieval Europe?

I mean like details plox
Veeky Forums explanations are infinitely more entertaining/ informative than Wipeda

I personally don't like Burgundy because of its location. It looked like an ugly blob between France and various german states. If Burgundy had been somewhere like southern France/northern Spain or northern Italy I would of liked it a lot more

>Geographic aesthetics

My nigga. Ugly country borders are a sure sign they shouldn't exist. Old burgundy looked like a shitty althistory map or a Paradox game.

Habsburg Burgundy looked good though til the Dutch wars.

Karl could've expanded burgundy further than that. It would have looked like a based dick.

>Ugly country borders are a sure sign they shouldn't exist
Tha fuq?

Map aesthetics are more important than cultural/linguistic/ethnic compositions.

The German names for the Dukes made me kek

t. EU4 player

through inheritance

This is 200% true.

Man I wish Burgundy had become a unified state. Belgium is shit.

is literally the reason I want lelgium to exist

I think Charles could've filled it out better if he were less of a rascal fuck.

this isnt that bad.

>People think that historical burgundy is a source of French German conflict

It goes back further than that to the Treaty of Verdun and the general cultural shift away from "Franks"

You have a Kingdom of West Francia (or the French) to the west, and then you have East Francia to the east, which becomes the Kingdom of Germany incredibly quickly.

But you see the boundary wasn't the rhine, because between West Francia and the Rhine was the land given to Lothar, the eldest son. This also included Italy.

What you got was that this area of the former Frankish Empire composed of tons of different peoples with little in common as opposed to the Germans east of the Rhine and the Franks hovering the other way. This stretch of land was doomed from 843 to be fought over by the French and Germans.

>exclaves
>not that bad

Charles the Bold is cute

CUTE

>Gavelkind succession
>Ever

Why not just burn your empire?

Am I the only one who likes the small Spanish Netherlands?

*pukes*

Alright, I'll go ahead and pre-digest it for ya
>be me
>Philip, fourth son of the king of France
>Dad managed to inherit the (french part of) the duchy of Burgundy

>fight the English at Poitiers at age 14 alongside my dad
>get called the Bold
>do get captured by the English
>get ransomed eventually
>dad dies
>as per appanage tradition of the Capetians, I inherit Burgundy
>sweet.jpg
>marry this hot bitch from Flanders
>she has huge... Tracts of land
>her dad dies
>her dad had managed to conquer and control the greater part of the southern Netherlands
>they're filled with the richest cities of northern Europe
>they all later become a pain in my ass
>rule in her stead because women can't be trusted
>put down dumb revolts for the rest of my reign
>have to put up with the burghers forcing their shit treaties down my throat
>one day, I'll shove those papers up their pampered burgher asses
>oneday.png

cont.

>In the meanwhile, my brother fucks up in France
>gets himself dead
>get to be regent for his child
>child is fucked in the head
>ohthatsjustgreat.jpg
>get into all that courtly shit, intrigue and murderous uncles and cousins
>keep on btfo'ing them while expanding my own territory
>wacko nephew makes his cunt brother regent
>he fucks up so badly I can easily regain control
>however, I die before I can fix this shitpile that is the French court
>left my possessions to my son Jean

The >>> is by far the most hideous abomination to ever disgrace European maps

>Be King of France
>Give your youngest son a lil fief
>He marries a lady with lots of territory
>His kids marry ladies with territories
>their kids buy some territories
>their kids conquer some territories
>all of a sudden the cadet branch is a dangerous rival to the main branch
>war with them
>shits gets real
>they marry your nations enemies
>they surround your territories
>wars for centuries

Gavelkind. Not. Even. Once.

>be me
>Jean sans peur
>know no fear
>be sent out at a young age to fight this new mudshit threat out east
>kill cockroaches for a few years in the Balkans before returning home
>manage to marry into the Bavarian house
>in return for my sister, this retard allows me to marry his sister, which consolidates my control over the low countries even more
>now counties of Holland and Hainaut are basically in the pocket
>or so you'd think

In any case, back to french court politics

>Fuckface uncle Louis is now again regent of retard cousin
>cantallowthattohappen.jpg
>go full intrigue mode and marry of my daughter off to the French heir in return for marrying my heir to retardo's daughter
>in the meanwhile, I fuck retardo's wife
>feelsgoodmayne.jpg
>kidnap and recover my son-in-law multiple times, mostly for shits and giggles
>cunt uncle is not amused
>has my men murdered in the streets
>Can't let that slide
>have Louis murdered by some backalley whore
>say it's justified and flee Paris
>nephew is pissed
>calls upon his family from Armagnac and starts whining about his murdered dad and shit
>starts an all out civil war between his family and mine
>meanwhile, The English attack and charge head-on for Paris
>perfidiousalbion.png
>peace negotiations are heating up fast now
>decide to go against rosbifs and ally up with fellow frogs anyway
>well, help
>there were no burgundians in sight at Agincourt
>both of my brothers die, leaving me their extensive plots of land
>ohnohowterrible.jpg
>Agincourt happens
>Armagnacs are basically dead
>I occupy Paris and try to capture the dauphin but he slips away
>whatever, Paris is mine
>force him to return because I own all of northern France and he has to negotiate
>meet him at a bridge to establish a peace
>his dickweed friends kill me
>HOW.jpg

And so ends the tale of John the Fearless, leaving it in the hands of his son, Philip the Good.

Cont.

>be me, Philip
>Dickweed Dauphin killed my father
>preparetodie.png
>ally up with Rosbifs, fuck French fraternity, he killed my pops
>inherit all this land
>It's fucking loaded
>Continue to btfo the frogs with my considerable funds and English allies
>Capture this peasant woman dressed in armour at one battle, bretty funny
>hand her over to the rosbifs
>they make her some kind of martyrs, fucking retard Rosbifs
>In any case, the tables are starting to turn on the perfidious albionese
>switch sides because fuck losing
>proceed to btfo rosbifs and occupy former English land in Northern France and the low countries
>French king tries to squirm out under my treaty, the ungrateful prick
>fund a rebellion against his dumb ass and give shelter to his insurgent son
>hopefully, that's the end of that mess
>because, my friends, France no longer truly interests me
>I want to consolidate my holdings
>and create a true Burgundian state

Cont.
Starting off, that means capturing the low countries.

>Mum's actually given me a claim to Hainaut and Holland, which is currently ruled by my banshee cousin
>decide I want it
>she's married a whole list of men
>all powerful men who haven't reached their potential
>she's still involved in some dumbass civil war in Holland
>asked around, no-one really knows what it was about or what it even is about
>have to deal with that too
>fuckme.jpg
>dethrone banshee cousin because what's she going to do? have a fit?
>she has a fit
>calls in her English hubby to help out
>consequently break off alliance with the Rosbifs, nice excuse
>still dethrone her because she's militarily retarded
>meanwhile, I inherit what's left of the southern Netherlands
>now, moving onto the bishopric of Utrecht
>this old fart won't submit to my rule
>besiege his cities untill they're willing to place my bastard underage son on the episcopal chair
>now control all of the Netherlands with the exception of two smaller principalities
>have an almost continuous strip of land from my capital to the port of Antwerp
>almost
>still pieces in between
>TRIGGERED.jpg
>tell my son that he should, no matter what, capture the inbetween leftovers
>he promises
>turn my capital into the Florence of the north
>die a happy man, leaving it all to my son, Charles

So ends the tale of based Philip, the GOAT burgundian.

What is Gavelkind?

*slow clap*

where can I read more about this memefest

amazon.com/Philip-Bold-Burgundy-Richard-Vaughan/dp/085115915X

This series is apparently great, and I've seen it recommend on Veeky Forums before

Fuck yes best history series ever.

Rather than primogeniture, where
>Firstborn son inherits all the land
it's
>Divide up the land so all your sons inherit a little bit

Dividing inheritance among your sons or multiple heirs. The Franks were fucking terrible at it. Dividing the empire time and time again, only result were wars between sons that would reunite the realm and divide it among the kids again.

France gave fiefdoms all the time as well and many became dangerous revivals to the throne.

Can you really think of this in something more than video game terms.

The "Empire" was the personal property of the King, it was basically his family business to run it and keep it going. This was his livelihood, everything he worked for. In the same way one son would get the TV, another would get the couch, or better yet one would get the store on Dunst Street and another would get the store on Kibler street, it was saw fit that one son would get to have lands here, another there, and one more over there.

Now I know you got the name for this succession from CK2 because that's the only place I've seen it used to describe splitting a kingdom up between sons, so now I'm going to tell you how inaccurate that is to the reality of the situation. If the son gets a fief in the contractual deal of succession, then that means that is the only fief that he should have a claim to, it's dishonest and bad history to make them retain the claims. Though they have to retain the claims so to represent a lot of the resulting wars that were really just mindless aggression.

The problems didn't come from the fact that all of the sons were given certain kingdoms, it came more from the fact that usually the "gavelkind" split was not well thought out because the father of the sons would die a bit too early for his will to really show what was going on. These were extended legal disputes that usually didn't happen if things were arranged before the King's death in complete certainty.

Also once again real life isn't a video game about ruling the most land making you top dog. These figures were real people who expected property and gifts from their family, there's a personal aspect with political dimensions.

>page 10

Burgundy threads are the shortest and most interesting threads on Veeky Forums.

Big thanks to the three Burgundyboos on this board.

Why did the Burgundians try to exist independently when the central Carolingian empire dissolved almost immediately

Thanks to all the contributors.

Has anyone read Vaughan's 'Valois Burgundy' history from 1975? I'm interested but poor and unsure about committing to his four volume set.

can't answer, another request:
any good books about valois burgundy that are not big?

>tfw no Valois-Burgundy France

Life support bump

Burgundy sadly was a failed project. Isabella Clara had a nice final run but it was already dead by then. The Spanish should have traded it to the French for some Mediterranean real-estate.

Burgundy had the most modern military in Europe. I don't know why that's so overlooked.

Charles V's administration was based on Burgundy.

>Habsburg Burgundy looked good though til the Dutch wars.

Im so sorry we ruined your nice map.

> the state might have been strong enough for the French not covet and war over for centuries, giving up their designs on the region i
Nope. That wouldn't happen.
The French kings would never accept to have a strong unified state surrounding Paris. Like they kept warring against the habsburg when they achieved that, they would have fought against their burgundy cousins until they won or exhausted themselves.
The alternative was for burgundy to conquer France. But that would just bring a new dynasty on the French throne.

And the world you fucking flakes.
>Lets ally with France destroy and weaken the Spanish Netherlands
>Oh shit France is too strong, lets ally with the Habsburgs and fight against the French
>Oh shit the Habsburgs are in a war ... meh as long as the South Netherlands are a good buffer
>Oh shit the Habsburgs and the French are allies

You should have been divided by the French and the English that one time.

Who's your favorite Duke of burgundy?

Not letting yet another Burgundy thread die.

I seem to learn more when I read history in greentext. There must be a market for this. Good job, user.

Veeky Forums Publications

Like Osprey, but with even more autism and the middle section comes with complementary reaction images.

Charles the Bold is cute

CUTE

Did Burgundy have one of the first modern standing armies?

Leading when it comes to fashion, painting, possible writing, music (often overlooked) and artillery.

Also being very very very rich.

>have Louis murdered by some backalley whore

I believe it were a bunch of guys in red hoods who split open his skull with a halberd.

T. /gsg/

HOOKS GET OUT OF HOLLAND REEEEE

T. Cod

Burgundy was nothing but a country with ugly borders ruled by a retarded family. I'm not even Louis XI, but it should be clear to everyone that Burgundy was ass and deserved to be swallowed up by France.

Some of the best stuff in general comes from that area. Franco Flemish Polyphony and Trappist ales get me excited.

This, they should have remained a quiet, well behaved cadet branch of the royal family instead of backstabbing us with the bongs.

Louis was based man, he didn't deserve it.

He was a big bully according to my Burgundy books.

youtube.com/watch?v=N86qrLlddO4

hnggggggggg

Do the modern Low Countries inherit anything culturally from this period?

Josquin and Ockeghem are some of my favorite composers ever. The former's tribute to the latter's death is absolutely beautiful.

oil painting mostly. The political system also remained until Napoleon, an extremely decentralized government where everyone had their owns coins and privileges.

The fashion of wearing black also stuck for a couple of centuries.

Why did they wear black if it was Burgundy?

Phillip the good started wearing black because his father John the (not so) Fearless got murdered.

Really? That's sad.

...

I can appreciate this.

Six days of Burgundy thread

Well people imitated him and were still dressed in black well into the 17th century, that has to count for something.

Are there any living descendants of the Dukes of Burgundy?

Yes. Habsburgs.

Considering Phillip the good had EIGHTEEN FUCKING BASTARD CHILDREN with 24 mistresses it seems likely.

Wearing black was also a long standing fashion in Spain. Maybe that had some impact in the Spanish Netherlands. And maybe calvinism helped too.

>EIGHTEEN FUCKING BASTARD CHILDREN with 24 mistresses

something about these numbers don't work out

Well I should have phrased it differently, he had 24 mistresses and at least 18 confirmed illegitimate children. Who knows if he had more.

It could be that Spain took that from Burgundy along with the court etiquette.

Guess he wasn't that good after all.

What court etiquette in particular?

I have an Osprey book on Burgundy and it has a picture of Philip the Good in battle dressed in gold plate and this crazy robe with his arms on it. Would he have really worn that, or did he only wear black when not at war?

Belgians often claim a lot of food and traditions are Burgundian. And enjoying the finer things in life is known as "living like a Burgundian"

Olivier de la Marche essentially wrote the book on how to run a court from the managers/monarchs perspective. Rituals, posts, ceremonies, in what formation the guards should march when following the Duke etc etc.

The book was translated into English and formed the basis for English court procedures for the next god knows how many years.

Charles V also had the book and more or less forced it on his Spanish lands. The local nobles resisted because the etiquette created more distance between the monarch and the courtiers but Charles V shoved it down their throats anyways.

I know the osprey depiction you are talking about it's an old and dated book at this point since its from the 70s or 80s. That said Phillip the Good did have a set of gilded plate armor and his heraldic tabard was worn over armor, though it is possible that the particular picture you are looking at was at a tournament.

Plebeian: Charles the Bold
Patrician: Philip the Good
Contrarian: John the Fearless
Underrated: Philip the Bold

...

...

Here was the picture in particular. I have about twenty Osprey books on medieval stuff and many of them are old editions. What typically goes out of date in these?

A lot of extra research has been done since then and some illustrations are not questioned.

How well do they update this stuff from edition to edition?

I like talking to people with interest and knowledge of medieval Burgundy. How did you learn so much? I also really appreciate the pictures, but could you explain what I'm looking at please? I know Philip the Bold loved fancy capes and sent them to everyone as diplomacy. Did that tradition continue?

Oh that cope in was a bishops cope of his bastard son David of Burgundy. Having a bastard Bishop is quite a thing and he loved bling. It's either a wool or silk red velvet cope with gold brocade and entire scenes from the bible woven in.

As for osprey, no idea in how far they update them. Personally I am aching for a new one on Burgundy. I have two books on Burgundy from Richard Vaughan which I read and I also have access to a university library which has some papers on the subject.

Interesting stuff, that Philip the Bold.

I have Vaughan's Burgundy series too and I'm trudging through Philip the Bold. It's good but somewhat boring, so I feel like the later books are going to get much better. Do you recommend any papers?

I'd love for a Warrior or Campaign book on Burgundy. I have some of the Osprey Warrior series and it's fantastic.