A lot of powerful nations and cultures were centered around flatland river systems and deltas...

A lot of powerful nations and cultures were centered around flatland river systems and deltas, but how did Greece or Iran manage it with lands as mountainous and hemmed in as theirs? How did they manage to dominate places like Egypt and Mesopotamia and not have it be the other way around?

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Tough environments require higher levels of organization and social experimentation and hierarchy to survive. In the Americas the lush lands were full of tribeshits and the deserts and mountains were advanced organized societies.

Its called being smart.

Iranian plateau on the highlands are relatively flat, its not as rocky or mountainous as Greece. But the natural borders of extremely hot deserts, mountain ranges on its borders, and steppe elevated highlands as well as relatively isolated presence until the 8th century BC gave it time to be ignored by other powers in Mesopotamia and the Levant; and that and the the Elamite state was usually the focus of foreign invaders while the Persians, Medes, and other Indo-Iranian people were still pastoral and semi-nomadic and not worth bothering about.

I know many people who went on vacations to Greece and were shocked by how dry it is. It is pretty much a semi arid country.

Greece was a series of islands crete peleponnese etc connected by the sea which incentivates travel, it was also the first place in Europe where Europe was introduced from Anatolia

>Anatolia
That one confuses me. It was apparently this really urbanized breadbasket for the Byzantines, but how? It's as much of a mountain maze as Iran.

For once agriculture was born there (and contemporary in the Levant and Mesopotamia), for twice itìs rich in ore deposits, so silver, iron and copper I believe.

Mountains don't shift.

You'll notice that most of Iran's population lives between dozens of river valleys cutting through the Zagros and Elburz mountains. While these rivers are seasonal and not as great as the Tigris or Euphrates, they cut through mountain passes that more or less keep them in one place. An issue with cities in Mesopotamia is that their rivers tend to wind around and change course over the course of several decades, and a city that was reaping incredible harvests one century can end up facing drought and irrigation problems the next.

Meanwhile the fact that Iran blocks the way between Central Asia, India, and Mesopotamia means trade pressures from China, the Mediterranean, and South Asia will flow through it eventually, and those mountains means human passage is more readily controlled (and most importantly taxed), leading to the rise of cities that will invariably dominate their particular river valley and nearby mountain passes.

What river valleys are in Pars/Fars when semi-nomadic Persians lived there on the edges of the deserts and in arid terrain?

There's the Dry and Kor Rivers.

Anatolia is considerably less arid than the iranian plateau.

There are still rivers in Greece and Iran, they just aren't as fertile as Mesopotamia. Once farming practices improved, the actual soil wan't as important. Also, Greece and Iran havepleny of plains between their hills and mountains

It also shares a similar advantage with Iran where it funnels east-west trade naturally due to the way its cities can end up commanding important trade routes and passes through the mountains.

It's kind of like Switzerland, which grew in wealth and power quickly once it became a chokepoint for trade between the Mediterranean and the Rhineland.

>How did they manage to dominate places like Egypt and Mesopotamia and not have it be the other way around?

It's easier to come down a mountain than it is to climb one.

Iran had access to people that knew how to fight on a horse. Iran takes over the populous Mesopotamia, after having taken over the warlike peoples of their mountains, steppes and deserts first. Nomads and mountain people are always stronger fighters in the pre-modern era.

Deltas m8 ever heard of them.There are at least 8 big deltas in Anatolia.Where Greeks colonized were full of that.

no, this is a stupid meme as evidenced by how civilisation spread towards dead snow, desert and tundra, not from it


This amazed me at first as well, but when I actually travelled there, I could see how easy it is to grow food there.

Whereas here in central Europe, you need good soil that you fertilise and till and maybe a greenhouse for some nice tomatoes, people just planted that shit everywhere in Turkey, like literally just random patches of ground.

Maybe our perception has been too influenced by modern breadbaskets American midwest style, which bring up efficiency to 11.

qualitypost

Some things still don't add up though. Persia seemed to swing above its weight compared to regions with apparently similar terrain.

How influential was trade really? Were silk profits really large enough to allow Persia to raise bigger armies?

Did the persians have problems with soil salination?

What role did the plains/steppes have? Could they be compared somewhat to the Mongols? Could it be that the region you describe was more of a convenient place for a political center, as opposed to being a strongly influential economic center in its own right?

How did population density in their core territories compare with mesopotamia and other civilizations like those along the Indus and Ganges and the north china plain or later western europe?

Flat riverlands are only great as a power base if they're surrounded by excellent natural defenses and/or fortifications. Places like Greece and Iran do have flatland, not as much as Iraq of course, but enough to support plenty of urbanization while their mountains keep those lands relatively safe.

>That one confuses me. It was apparently this really urbanized breadbasket for the Byzantines, but how?
Only west Anatolia and Trebizond were really important and the economic centre (beyond Constantinople) of the empire and they are beyond the Taurus mountains. Western Anatolia and Trebizond aren't mountainous

Persia became powerful due to diplomacy and leadership skills. Yeah they had horses and river plains and bla bla bla but so did everybody else. It really goes back to culture.

Neither is northern Iran.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Iran

Why are you impliying that persians had bigger armies than the foes they conquered?

That's why I specifically mentioned Iranian plateau, not Iran.

The "turkish counterpart" to Iran's caspian shore, the pontic region, is also extremely green and wet compared to the rest of the nation.

Genetics.