What was the best weapon to use against plate armor?

Lucerne hammer. A giant spike for spiking and a giant hammer for hammering.

Not if he's getting shot at by 50 of them at once

I know, to my knowledge lether was more common, but the gambesons were also against arrows.

poleaxe with a hook

50 hits at a moving target is not easy and often he would have a shield with him.

as if you could get a trained mailed knight into a position where you would be able to do such a thing with a dagger

plated knight*

id say a trebuchet would be best

Longbows cant penetrat most plate armor
thats a well established fact
plus

>I know, to my knowledge lether was more common,
Your knowledge is bullshit, and you should kill yourself.

All of you go drink bleach. Now.

this

So you're saying some dude wearing plate can take a volley of arrows and come out completely unscathed?

a cloak and a m4

Given that this happened multiple times, yes.

Happened all the time. Say he got knocked off his horse. Falling off a horse while wearing 40-50 pounds of armor is going to knock the wind out of you at the very least, assuming it doesn't break any bones or anything. A guy like that isn't necessarily in a position to right effectively.

Say he got knocked down in the press of battle, or slipped in the mud, or is just outnumbered three to one and he gets grabbed, or has his visor down to protect from arrows flying every which way and didn't see you coming.

Battle is inherently chaotic. Shit goes wrong all the time.

a nuke.

The guy would get cut down by some other dude on a horse first

Examples? I don't disbelieve you or anything, but there are some convincing pics ITT

>Falling off a horse while wearing 40-50 pounds of armor is going to knock the wind out of you at the very least, assuming it doesn't break any bones or anything. A guy like that isn't necessarily in a position to right effectively.
Except you're wrong.

Here's an old man throwing his ass of a horse to make the point.

youtube.com/watch?v=WMuNXWFPewg

Literally every single rider captured at agincourt rode through the shooting of several thousands of archers and survived.

Every. One.
The guy fucking leading the charge survived.

>MUH PICS
That's nice. Actual testing is not kind to longbows, at all.

>There's no difference between jumping off of your horse on a practice field and being slammed in the chest with a lance and flung off as you're charging at full tilt.

Are you stupid, or just intellectually dishonest? You could just as easily point to people doing training in a martial art of your choice doing throw practice, and say that people don't get hurt when tripped or flung to the floor violently.

If you don't think getting slammed off of your horse from the sorts of things likely to do that in battle isn't going to hurt you, you're an idiot. It's that, not the weight, that makes it hard to get up again.

so the lance is doing the damage, falling off the horse doesn't matter

Different user, I agree with you but isn't it different when you fall off your horse in an uncontrolled fashion? That can make a fall crippling or even fatal, depending on how you land.

I would imagine that guns and cannons would work well enough.
People tend to forget that guns are pretty old.

getting lanced is generally what puts someone out of action, not falling off of a horse

You mean the lance that probably didn't penetrate the armor? You mean all the other ways that you can lose your mounting in battle, from your horse being hit by anything from another horse crashing into it to someone killing it or wounding it enough that it can't hold you anymore, to you being bodily pulled down and flung off the horse by enemy infantry because your charge faltered.

Controlled fall != Uncontrolled fall. And an uncontrolled fall from a horse is very likely to hurt you. Maybe not enough to kill you, or to put you out of action for very long (but then again, maybe yes, think of the infamous Frederick Barbarossa's fall off his horse), but something that will knock the wind out of you? Or daze and disorient you? Certainly enough opening for someone to start shoving a dagger through a joint somewhere.

Yes, user, falling five feet while your body is wrapped in a extremely tough materiel that absorbs shock and spreads it over a wide area is indeed the most fatal thing ever, and worse than a blow from a lance.

Thank you for revealing these things to us.
>think of the infamous Frederick Barbarossa's fall off his horse
Yes, because a 67 year old man is very much equivalent to a man in his 20s in terms of ability to avoid injury during strenuous activity or mishaps.

Ignore that people falling off of horses is normal and accepted as inevitable as you learn to ride.

MUH FLOORS
And if fields were as hard as floors, i'd care.

Unfortunately for you, they're earth. Often fucking mud exactly like what he's falling in, because that sort of muddy bullshit is the direct result of horses churning up the field.

Go jump out of a moving car traveling at 30 miles per hour.

Extra hard mode: jump off the roof, since being inside the vehicle wouldn't account for the horse's height.

Dante must die mode: Land on your feet and ready to face oncoming traffic.

And you continue, ignoring the many thousands of people who fall from horses every year with minimal injuries every year, despite NOT being covered in armor to help them.

>30 miles an hours
Oh, good. The "horses always gallop" and "cavalry attacks at breakneck speeds" meme is here.

>Yes, user, falling five feet while your body is wrapped in a extremely tough materiel that absorbs shock and spreads it over a wide area is indeed the most fatal thing ever, and worse than a blow from a lance.

Nice strawman you built there.

>Yes, because a 67 year old man is very much equivalent to a man in his 20s in terms of ability to avoid injury during strenuous activity or mishaps.

Because every person on the battlefield was in his 20s, amirite? You know that a knight was a social position, right? That you'd be expected to fight when your lord called, regardless of age. Hell, John Marshall was kicking ass well into his 70s.

>Ignore that people falling off of horses is normal and accepted as inevitable as you learn to ride.

Ignore that you have roughly 80,000 injuries per year doing so.

riders4helmets.com/equestrians/

Ignore that this is in a day and age where you don't have people trying to knock you off said horse, and these are merely accidents.

>And if fields were as hard as floors, i'd care.

They're harder than mats, which is what people do throw practice on, idiot.

Rapier to pierce it

The plague

I don't think classic wheel and flintlocks could do much to steel plate, aside from denting. Maybe an arquebus could pierce it, but still might not be fatal.

Why are there always people in these types of threads that go "hurrr a gun".

Must be a bunch of no history yanks.

Inb4 gonne, all bark no bite.

Maybe because a canon is still the best way to deal with plate armor and that's the way it was done in historical times, when possible.

Lucerne hammers and pollaxes are fine and all but you need to get close...

Pyromancy. Cook metalnigga in his armor.

>Crossbow
Not a wimpy one, but a 1000+lb mechanically drawn one could penetrate.
>Guns
Depends on the era, but as guns got better, plate to stop it got heavier, and eventually the gun prevailed.
>Cannon
see >Polearm
Something like a Lucerne hammer or Bec de Corbin was designed to punch through or crush armour, and could also be used to pull someone off a horse.
>warhammers/picks
Uses the momentum of a horse rather than the leverage granted by a long shaft to defeat armour.
>Lances
Could penetrate some plate, later plate was less vulnerable to lances.
>Estoc
Can be thrusted at gaps in armour, or even used as a makeshift lance.
>Rondel/Misericorde/Stiletto
Designed to be thrust through gaps in joints or visors.

well they're correct. You're the no history yank if you think guns and full harness weren't contemporaries.

maybe not a gun but more like a hand canon

That's what a fucking gun is.

>Crossbow
By being able to fire much heavier projectiles than a bow at similar velocities, a powerful crossbow designed for war would easily pentrate plate.
>Guns
Depends on the era, but as guns got better, plate to stop it got heavier, and eventually the gun prevailed.
>Cannon
see >Polearm
Something like a Lucerne hammer or Bec de Corbin was designed to punch through or crush armour, and could also be used to pull someone off a horse.
>warhammers/picks
Uses the momentum of a horse rather than the leverage granted by a long shaft to defeat armour.
>Lances
Could penetrate some plate, later plate was less vulnerable to lances.
>Estoc
Can be thrusted at gaps in armour, or even used as a makeshift lance.
>Rondel/Misericorde/Stiletto
Designed to be thrust through gaps in joints or visors.

A panzer

type of gun then yes

which panzer?

Maybe in your fucking video games.

old guns are useless against plate
crossbows are good though, even longbows

How do you not lose your hands and rib cage with the recoil when this shit fires ?

Can a hand warhammer pierce a plate or a helmet when used on foot ? I mean the shit is still dented for blunt damage, but can you pierce it with the pick ?

they usually have a stock the size od a polearm

Yeah but I wonder about the horizontal force of the recoil, the shit has no grip to hold against it, isn't it likely to slip away when fired ?

meant for

That's actually probably a mounted cannon. Gunpowder was immensely expensive in Western Europe in the first few centuries of Gun development. I didn't bother looking very far for a more appropriate picture.

Gun Powder was expensive so cannons were often very small. Didn't finish my point.

>mounted cannon

Seems much more reasonable that way

It seems like it would be possible. However, it's important to remember that plate didn't just protect by being thick and strong, but also being a curved surface that made it hard for weapons to gain purchase on rather than sliding off.

I think your best bet if you were in that situation would be to smack their helmet and try and concuss them, or draw your dagger and go full on GRAPPLIN' TIME.

Maybe someone who has studied some historical manuals could share about it. I think Talhoffer wrote about maces, I imagine the techniques wouldn't be that different.

Panzer IV

so much love for that tank

Plate armor

There are no Mace sources. There doesn't need to be. All relevant techniques are covered in the sword section just as they all or most of them exist today in Stickfighting arts etc.

Well that's what the picks are designed for. Evidence suggests it was fairly rare. Warhammers were better used on horseback.

Thinking a knight in full plate armour was the tank of its day a Panzerfaust 3 would do.

Are you so sure about arrows?"

youtube.com/watch?v=Ej3qjUzUzQg

Longbows weren't particularly good at penetrating plate armour. They weren't even good at penetrating mail.

youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk

Probably a well-aimed, close shot from the best arquebus/musket available, and even then it could fail if the plate was thick enough.

That was only against the thickest plate, though, an even then most proofed armor was, well, proofed against pistols. And at closer ranges the odds got more in favor of the gunpowder weapons.

>easily
Easily is a stretch, but yeah they could penetrate plate. It's a similar case as the gun one.

Bullshit. Plate had to get thicker precisely because weapons like guns and (heavy) crossbows started being able to defeat it. Meanwhile, longbows never really did much against it. Even the (actually not incredibly weaker) mail was usually enough to protect you against them.

This
That's how Bayard got BTFO

Trebuchet

It pieced what, an inch or two?
You're forgetting the man at arms would be wearing a aketon/gambeson/arming doublet underneath and probably mail too. That and such shallow penetration would do bugger all.

Whoa. Page 11?!

War hammer.

Melee? Estoc
Ranged? Just shoot him with a pistol

What are you talking about? Flintlocks were used after 1600s and they definitely pierced plate. Perhaps you want to say matchlock arquebus but those also reliable could penetrate plate at 50 yards or less.

Easiest way is to kill the horse and then stab them in the face with a dagger. Peasants aren't supposed to kill knights, you know.

>as if you could get a trained mailed knight into a position where you would be able to do such a thing with a dagger
youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q
2:28

Awl Pike

Any blunt weapon
Crossbows
Fire
(rain)

>no history yanks.
American history is far more interesting than centuries of feudal lords competing for who has the biggest dick.

>the Gods
>they've rusted me

pokey sticks

Plate became virtually impenetrable.

The solution is to crush him and his armor.

You throw water on him until he rusts you fucking imbeciles.

Fucking shithead. You pour air on him until he suffocates. Fucking retards in this thread.

Dumbass mother fuckers, show him your wife's hairy cooter to enduce vomiting. As his helmet fills with vomit, he suffocates in your display of dominance.

BULLSHIT

the point was that it wasnt the armor that makes getting up after being unhorsed difficult.

being it in the chest or head by a lance would certainly tend to stun you and make getting up more difficult, as would people on the ground trying to kill you.

>You mean the lance that probably didn't penetrate the armor?
a lance absolutely could penetrate armor, a lance concentrates the full force of a charging horse and its rider at a single point and penetrates quite handily.
tourney lances at tournaments had hollow centers to make sure they broke and deliberately widened blunt heads and were against significantly thicker armor than would be used in battle and penetration was still considered a risk, war lances against the normal battle armor of the period would penetrate unless the blow was glancing

>american history

>the longbow was a deadly weapon
Where did this meme even come from? It doesn't even penetrate a gambeson
youtube.com/watch?v=CULmGfvYlso

Pic related.

Concussive power.
Piercing power.
Range.

Capable of dismounting a motherfucker from a horse and piercing his head with the spike before he knew what hit him.

>duh...

Pic...

I'm not sure if they used the spike against armour, as they tend to get stuck if you manage to penetrate it
Or at least that's what based Matt taught me