Why did the Royal Navy perform so poorly against Japan, yet meme Italy into oblivion?

Wow, one exception.

Because planes beat ships. Over in the Pacific, it was the Japanese with a clear air advantage. In the Med, it was pretty evenish, but the RN managed to get a local air advantage for critical battles like Taranto.

>OP has a picture of the Prince of Wales
>The destruction of Force Z was the most well known British naval failure of the East

Force Z was nothing compared to what the nips had.

Well yeah they had air power.

No fucking shit m8

Force Z was not sunk by naval aircraft

I never said anything about the air power being naval.

I know I'm just saying. Besides, the British knew very well by this point that Air power could win naval battles, so again, the Nips won because the Brits were focused elsewhere

Well that's what I meant mate. The British had relatively little air power in the Pacific at that time. After all you are going to care more about the homeland.

By Dec 1941, Brits had built more carriers than the Nips and had advanced tech that Nips could only dream of such as plane-borne radar.

I was talking about in regards to why force Z and other British forces got sunk. You really need to stop getting defensive.

Because Force Z had a grand total of 2 (two) capital ships and 4 (four) destroyers making up its composition. It was a small symbolic force to begin with, and when the Japanese attacked it en masse with air power, it was overwhelmed. The air support it needed never arrived, and in the opening minutes of the attack Prince of Wales took a torpedo in the literal worst spot so she lost power. And with that power went the only modern AA suite in the force, so they were relying on Repulse's mid-30s setup to defend them. It was only a matter of time before both of them were sunk.

After that, the British decided to not waste any more ships splitting their fleet between Europe and the Pacific because they would never be able to fight the Japanese with enough force to make a difference. Furthermore, Europe was weak at that moment because the Italians had just sunk two of their battleships in Alexandria so the Royal Navy needed to focus there to begin with.

What are we arguing about?

We were arguing? Sounded like I just needed to clarify what I meant.

>After that, the British decided to not waste any more ships splitting their fleet between Europe and the Pacific because they would never be able to fight the Japanese with enough force to make a difference
Not true at all. They sent a large fleet to counter the Nips in 1942 but the nip and bong fleets never met, as nips wanted a day battle and bongs wanted a night battle.

This makes no sense, IJN were masters of night combat, ask the USN at Savo Island.

But not night aerial combat. Surface night combat yes.

user, in WW2 nighttime naval aerial combat was not a thing. If you managed to find the enemy fleet at all, you would still have an impossible time actually hitting them. And then, you would have to find your way back to your own fleet in the dark, they're also moving don't forget. And THEN you would have to *land* in the dark.

They just did not have the tech to be able to do that. The only reason it worked out for the Americans at the Marianas Turkey Shoot was because they had so destroyed the IJN's air arm they could safely turn on the deck lights to allow their aircraft to land.

Not to mention the "large fleet" mentioned was three carriers (one old and obsolete) and a few old battleships, split into two separate entities and even combined were still outnumbered at least two to one by the IJN forces opposite them. It's true they were staking everything on a night air action with radar-equipped Swordfish torpedo bombers but in the event they never got their chance and the Japanese hit them hard at Ceylon, sinking CV Hermes and several other warships and sending the rest packing. The RN never seriously challenged the IJN until 1944 when the Battle of the Atlantic was all but won and they could spare enough ships for an effective force.

That's a nice little theory you have there, user, but sadly you are an imbecile and history is based on what actually happened, not what morons think should have happened based on their imperfect knowledge of history. British Pacific Fleet was looking for a night battle. That's a fact. British had night battle capability. That's a fact. British had plane-borne radar. That's a fact. You know the Swordfish squadron that crippled the Bismarck? They found and hit the Bismarck at night. That's a fact.
You should stop posting or better, just kys.

>the Japanese hit them hard at Ceylon, sinking CV Hermes and several other warships and sending the rest packing
Japanese never clashed with the Pacific Fleet. What the Japanese "hit hard" at Ceylon were some decrepit old vessels.
RN was not "sent packing" anymore than the IJN, which left the Indian Ocean soon after some inconsequential raids and left it a British pond as it was before.

>The RN never seriously challenged the IJN until 1944
Which has a lot to do with the fact that there was no IJN to challenge by the end of the 1942, when the USN was through with them.

>You know the Swordfish squadron that crippled the Bismarck? They found and hit the Bismarck at night. That's a fact.
No they fucking didn't. The attack that crippled the Bismarck was made in the daytime.

Oh yes they fucking did.

And their raid on the ship at night was made after the Bismarck was circling the drain and a helpless target unable to maneuver. Completely different than an enemy battlefleet.

Ark Royal probably turned her deck lights on then too.

>And their raid on the ship at night was made after the Bismarck was circling the drain and a helpless target unable to maneuver. Completely different than an enemy battlefleet.
You mean after the Bismarck was circling the drain and unable to maneuver because it was hit by a Swordfish torpedo?
Brits had better tech than Japs but no, they didn't have time travel.

No, their raid on the ship is what MADE the Bismarck a helpless target unable to maneuver.

That's kind of what happens when you start blowing up important machinery in the ship.

A torpedo attack made when there was light. They were in the North Atlantic during the summer, user. They had light late during the day.

Reminder that both HMS Victorious and HMS Ark Royal found the Bismarck and hit it at night on separate occasions, though only the second attack was able to cripple it.
But since some autist on the internet says night air combat wasn't a thing, I guess we'll have to take his word for it.

You are aware that the British Pacific Fleet did not exist until 1944, right? All the RN had in the area in 1942 was the Eastern Fleet, as mentioned above they had 3 CVs, 5 vintage BBs and a handful of smaller ships, split into Force A (2 CV 1 BB) and Force B (1 CV 4 BB). After the Brits failed to make contact for their planned Swordfish attack the Japanese hit Ceylon, after which the remaining ships were moved further west to the African coast or detached to serve elsewhere. The Japanese opted not to press further and the RN got off relatively easy.

It happened at 11pm you retard.

You are aware that arguing semantics and minor naming errors is petty retardedshit people resort to when they know they fucked up but they are too proud to just shut up, right?

Because Italians are retarded.

>Upon returning to Ark Royal, the Swordfish loaded torpedoes equipped with contact detonators. The second attack comprised fifteen aircraft and was launched at 19:10. At 20:47, the torpedo bombers began their attack descent through the clouds. As the Swordfish approached, Bismarck fired her main battery at Sheffield, straddling the cruiser with her second salvo. Shell fragments rained down on Sheffield, killing three men and wounding several others. Sheffield quickly retreated under cover of a smoke screen. The Swordfish then attacked; Bismarck began to turn violently as her anti-aircraft batteries engaged the bombers. One torpedo hit amidships on the port side, just below the bottom edge of the main armour belt. The force of the explosion was largely contained by the underwater protection system and the belt armour but some structural damage caused minor flooding.

>The second torpedo—fired by pilot John Moffat—struck Bismarck in her stern on the port side, near the port rudder shaft. The coupling on the port rudder assembly was badly damaged and the rudder could not be disengaged, locked in a 12° turn to port. The explosion also caused much shock damage. The crew eventually managed to repair the starboard rudder but the port rudder remained jammed. A suggestion to sever the port rudder with explosives was dismissed by Lütjens, as damage to the screws would have left the battleship helpless. At 21:15, Lütjens reported that the ship was unmanoeuvrable.

>19:10
>20:47
>21:15

Nigga can you fucking count?

The first successful hit was at 11-midnight, the second was around 9-10pm.

Now, I don't know where exactly the battle happened, but it's not impossible for you to be the retard.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Circle

20:47 in May is either going to be dark no matter what the weather is, and it was cloudy.

>Now, I don't know where exactly the battle happened
That's fairly obvious from your post.
>arctic circle
Stop posting.

Neptune's Inferno is a good start.

>49 N
>Arctic Circle

The Japanese are the Germans of Asia, being highly efficient, industrious and warlike. Whereas Italians are like the Indians of Europe, being inefficient, corrupt and having once been great during antiquity only to end up as a shithole in modern times.

Here's a map of the Bismarck's path. Lets use Brest as an approximate gauge for the latitude the Swordfish made their attack at.

timeanddate.com/sun/france/brest?month=5

>May 26
>Civil Twilight: 10:05-10:38 PM
>Daylight: 6:25AM-10:05 PM

This isn't exact for 1941, however the times would not change THAT much because this is based around Latitude more than anything else.

They had fucking sunlight when they made the attack. The aircraft might have been equipped with radar, but they did not need it.

Whoops. Forgot the map.

It was just to show you retards that the day isn't the same length at all latitudes

>It happened 10 minutes before when sun officially sets, so it's daylight
You decided the attack happened at day before you knew any of the facts, and now as facts come out, you are adapting your arguments and coming up with new bullshit just to avoid saying you were retarded and wrong. This is completely unnecessary. Let's just agree that Brits had night combat capabilities and move on.
>They had fucking sunlight when they made the attack.
It was a cloudy day and they also hit the Bismarck at midnight. So why the fuck are you stubbornly clinging to a lost argument?

>It was just to show you retards that the day isn't the same length at all latitudes
And you decided claiming Paris is in the Arctic Circle was the best way to demonstrate that. Genius move.

>coming up with new bullshit just to avoid saying you were retarded and wrong. This is completely unnecessary. Let's just agree that Brits had night combat capabilities and move on.

I have literally never seen such childish bullshit even from vatniks on this forum.

>>Let's just agree that Brits had night combat capabilities and move on.

lol holy shit kid

I never claimed that, you just assume too much, probably because of years of creating strawmen on Veeky Forums, right :^)

It happened 10 minutes before when sun officially sets, so it's daylight

yes, that's factually correct

THIS JUST IN. 10PM IS NOT NIGHT. PARIS IS IN THE ARCTIC CIRCLE. Veeky Forums IS DEFINITELY A GOOD BOARD AND SHOULD NOT BE DELETED.

>you retards, he says, linking a wiki article to the arctic circle for a battle west of Brest

>THE SUN IS UP BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER IT'S 10 PM THAT MEANS IT'S NIGHT
>EVEN IF THE BATTLE TAKES PLACE BEFORE THE SUN SETS IT'S FUCKING NIGHT

Can you not process different parts of the world or something you retard?

Is this a common core issue?
Are you guys incapable of interpreting any but the most inobtuse meainings?

I know the "lol ur autistic" insult gets thrown around a lot around here but this might be an actual real life autistic rage damage control we are experiencing here guys.

sorry, not you, the guy who is claiming your wrong no matter how much evidence to the contrary.

Wait. Ten minutes before the sun sets? They started their attack around an hour before sunset. They would have had about the same amount of light as you would in the evening.

...

I lived north of that latitude. There's "daylight" but it's not much. >same amount of light as you would in the evening is meaningless. You don't have the same amount of light in the evening all evenings and at all times of the evening.

And the best thing about all this sperging around is that the Brits hit the Bismarck at Midnight in the first attack from the Victorious, yet you morons are too busy trying to make 10pm into day to remind yourselves of that fact.

>yet you morons are too busy trying to make 10pm into day

The sun being in the sky doesn't mean it's daytime anymore, I guess.

>The Victorious hit the Bismarck at Midnight
They launched around sunset and still only scored one hit against a single ship. This does not mean they would be able to make a successful attack against an enemy fleet in the dead of night in a different part of the world.

Masters is pushing it. There were a bunch of night battles around Guadalcanal where the Japanese came off worse.

At exactly midnight Esmonde led the first sub-flight into a simultaneous attack. His starboard lower aileron was hit almost immediately, and he abandoned his original intention to attack from starboard, deciding to drop there and then, whilst he was still in a good position on the target’s port beam and Bismarck was nicely silhouetted against the glow of the setting sun. Both he, and Sub-Lieutenant(A) Thompson, in 5C, released on Bismarck’s port bow from an altitude of 100’. The third member of the flight, Lieutenant MacLean, in 5B, got separated in the descent through the clouds and attacked separately, but also on the port side. Proving that his ship handling skills were superb, Captain Lindemann artfully dodged all three “fish”.

kbismarck.com/article2.html

>Bismarck was nicely silhouetted against the glow of the setting sun.
WELL WHAT DO YOU FUCKING KNOW

>Is this a common core issue?
>Are you guys incapable of interpreting any but the most inobtuse meainings?
No matter how coarse and base their argument is, you flinging shit after you dropped a nugget of completely useless info is way more retarded.

Other than Cape Esperance and the 2nd Naval battle of Guadalcanal the Japanese performed much better in night actions, the US only gained the upper hand thanks to radar which the IJN was sorely lacking (which was why they had trained extensively for night combat without radar to rely upon). 2nd Guadalcanal was actually going quite well for the Japanese with several US DDs sunk or crippled and BB South Dakota forced to withdraw, BB Washington only turned the tide thanks to radar.

Point is the USN would've fared even worse if they didn't have radar.

>Other than Cape Esperance and the 2nd Naval battle of Guadalcanal the Japanese performed much better in night actions
Quick, name two major night battles the Japanese won.

Battle of Java Sea and First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal?

Oh, and Tassafaronga.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tassafaronga

First battle of Gaudalcanal was a failure for them since they did not accomplish their objective.

Savo Island, Tassafaronga, 1st Naval Guadalcanal

It was a tactical success, the question relates to night combat and not overall strategic outcomes.

I don't see anything about tactical wins getting mentioned.

The entire argument is about whether the Japanese were effective at night combat, which is measured in tactical success.

>won 3 minor battles
>lost 2 major battles
Sounds like Japs didn't perform noticeably better than the USN despite what the weebs want to believe.

>leaving out Java Sea
>driving the ABDA Command out of the East Indies wasn't major

Nobody denies the US got better than them once radar came into play. The argument was that the Japanese were better at night fighting at the start of the war.

Are you seriously trying to argue that Savo Island, Tassafaronga and 1st Naval Guadalcanal were less important than Cape Esperance and 2nd Guadalcanal? Hell 1st Naval Guadalcanal was a major strategic US victory as it turned back a bombardment fleet that would've put the hurt on Henderson Field, they just happened to come off worse tactically after the night action.

When did radar come into play for the US? Would have thought they would have been modernising before Japan struck.

They only got the cavity magnetron from the British in early 1941. The US needed to fully process it and start designing radar sets that could take advantage of it. There were some prototypes amongst the fleet in 1941; you can see the radar aerials on the California and West Virginia in photos of the attack and aftermath. But they didn't really start getting strong until late 1942. Washington's destruction of Kirishima was the big herald that the game had changed for good.

Late 1942. And even then some of the older commanders didn't use it effectively. Furthermore there was still the issue of faulty torpedoes until late 1943.

Excuse me, late 1940.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission

The US had radar from the opening rounds of Guadalcanal, what they were lacking was combat experience and committed a series of blunders during the campaign that the Japanese capitalized on with their superior night combat training and experience. Cape Esperance is an example of the USN using their radar advantage to great effect, 2nd Naval Guadalcanal as well. Tassafaronga and Savo Island on the other hand saw blunders such as one US commander switching off his radar under the belief that it would give away his position and confusion over whether ships detected were Japanese or out of formation US ships.

As mentioned the BB vs BB action during 2nd Guadalcanal was the turning point in night warfare, culminating in the curb-stomp battle that was Surigao Strait.

Seconding Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors, by the same author, is also an excellent read.

Kaigun is supposed to be about as comprehensive a book about the IJN as a whole as is possible, but I haven't cracked that open yet.

Because Italy was already a meme.

Them being on opposite sides of the world might have played a factor.

Because the Italians are incompetent

Jesus christ, i don't know if you're right or not but judging by how edgy and triggered you are, you're the real loser here.

>RN was not "sent packing

lol in what universe?