Is CS saturated in Canada?

Not googling, asking /g/, or asking /r/cscareerquestions because they're all politicized to hell and give you biased shitty answers and ban you if you make them upset by mocking their sacred cows. The worst one is google, because you constantly get spammed with "STEM shortage" articles.

I have worked for 10 months, basically part time remote, to make this app for this guy. I answered an add on craigslist. My GPA was 3.1 when I took the job and I couldn't get into coop, mainly because I'm doing school remotely. He didn't even ask about my GPA. Now, this isn't really a formal job arrangement. He just gives me specs, and then I go figure out how to code it. He's happy with the app I have produced so far. I'm probably going to put it in the store before summer. He wants to charge quite a bit for the app. I am pretty much his Pajeet.

Here's the bad part. I'm working for free. Now it's true that I don't need the money because I live with my parents, but it would be nice to not have my bank account constantly overdrawn if I make a major purchase. I bought a new computer over Christmas, and I still haven't zeroed my debit card completely. I applied at all of the big 4, IBM, and local companies that are subsidiaries of the big 4. None of them gave me any attention. This was before I took the job from this random guy.

So guys, what the fuck should I do? This is going to drag on forever. I thought this would be a nice summer project, but the app ended up requiring like 100,000 lines of code. He still wants to add more shit, and I'm going to graduate in the summer. I'm pretty sure I got memed into a meme degree. There is no STEM shortage. If there were, I wouldn't be working for free in the informal gig economy. There are days when I get out of bed so I can add him on LinkedIn eventually. I am working for a fucking LinkedIn contact. I hate being a millennial. He hasn't even paid the cost of my licenses for the app stores, and he said he would.

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theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/03/the-myth-of-the-science-and-engineering-shortage/284359/

Temporary foreign workers, bootcampers, and open source programmers have driven wages into the ground. I don't know a single CS grad who has broken 50k.

It's an awful degree and the career has no entrance barrier.

Do you have a contract, OP? If you do not, just fuck him and open source your app for your portfolio and apply anywhere.

>no entrance barrier.

Pretty much. I don't have a degree yet and I'm already employed. Some guy I know on FB did a boot camp and now seems to be working in the field. He didn't even finish uni and he's older than me.

Where in Canada are you? I'm in Vic.

My app is on GitHub dude. I can show it to whatever employer I want.

Burnaby. In the process of transferring into engineering because there exists a barrier to employment.

So are CS majors basically forced to emigrate to the US at this point if they ever want to have enough money to have 3 kids, a house, and a car?

It's not going to make any money. He's an idiot. This is a hair brained scheme.

People will just decompile the app and put it on some store somewhere. Maybe the iOS version will sell because normies don't jailbreak.

He wants to charge like 10 USD each. He's fucking off his rocker. He's so used to making it hand over fist because he's got a cushy government job.

Tell him it's time to start discussing compensation for your effort. Request 50% of revenue or 5k upfront or something. If you do a revenue deal, make sure you publish the app. You can always walk away.

Yeah, but he thinks it will make money and will consider a cash deal instead of revenue.

The problem is that I agreed to do it for free at the time, because what he described sounded like a webapp, which I could have finished in less than a month. He demanded that I do it the hard way. 100k loc later here we are.

If I ask for money, it could upset things. If he weren't dragging his ass on adding me on LinkedIn and paying my license fees I honestly wouldn't care about the money, because I can just make a withdrawal from the bank of mom and dad like all other Millennials to pay off my debit card.

have some self respect leaf

>I'm working for free

i don't have a degree either and working 8 years now, been senior dev and now i have crawled up to lead dev and architect position.

i participate in many interviews for new recruits and it baffles me how can they come out of uni knowing so fucking little about their chosen field. they say we put the bar too high because we insist anyone applying know the difference between a fucking class and a struct for example. or know what transactions are in a database that's one they routinely fail.

Canada is a shit place to work

High taxes, weak currency. Get paid in USD if you can

Canada failed bigly. Sad!

Well you're getting bitched around. Put your foot down and tell him you'll nuke the project if he doesn't at the very least do what he said he would. If you can code decently just got Freelancer and take up some odd jobs. At least then you'll have some money.

Yeah CS in general is saturated but if you're good at it it's impossible to be uneeded. So I would only do it if you really enjoy it.

What the fuck am I reading? You're letting yourself be enslaved to someone on craigslist for months because he won't add you on LinkedIn?

Software development is a globalized career,
there are three paths:
1. Working for an IT shop for 60k/year till you get outsourced
2. Working for AMZ/FB/MS/GOOGLE/UBER
3. Making your own product

Shit's bleak senpai, not gonna lie. Must as well skip the suffering and go straight to 3.

Go on quora and see some answers by Alex Rogachevsky for a fresh perspective on SD

indeed it's saturated by hoards of shitheads and there is a huge shortage of decent professionals.

Zuckerberg him

>if you're good

This is a really dumb sentiment. Good just means intelligent. The best programmers are all genius level IQs who work on the latest ML shit. This is not the kind of biz where working harder matters.

>Good just means intelligent.
no you can be as intelligent as humanly possible and be a shit programmer still. obviously dumb fucks are not going to make it in general. but that's just one tiny component you have to build a lot upon. the good programmers are also very intuitive even tho they carefully analyze the most likely candidates for a solution they can disregard hundreds of unfitting patterns in the blink of an eye... also the ability to efficiently and quickly google your issues is one of the most important skills. much more important than any lexical knowledge about any language or framework. the playing field is ever changing unless you are great in learning and adapting you gonna be a shit programmer.
>The best programmers are all genius level IQs who work on the latest ML shit.
very few programmers actually work on or with ml, not necessarily the best. ml is more data science than programming altho there are overlaps.

>no you can be as intelligent as humanly possible and be a shit programmer still.

No. Go read about g, moron.

>very few programmers actually work on or with ml

Everyone who works on ML is a programmer, because they're at least capable of writing python programs.

>No.
yes
>Everyone who works on ML is a programmer
dude that's total bullshit, very few programmers are actually need in ml preparing sorting and transforming the data is 90% of ml and it's not usually a programmers job. it's like you still live in 20 years ago or something.

You stupid bitch. The statisticians and mathematicians doing ML are programmers. You don't have to have a degree in CS to be a fucking "programmer," tard.

Someone who programs = programmer.

>Someone who programs = programmer.
i guess this is the point where we have to eternally disagree.
code monkeys are not programmers and will never be programmers any more than housewives programming their washing machines.

also it's like you missed that ml got incredibly formalized and commercialized in the past years maybe at one time only programmers could type texts into computers nowadays any moron with an editor can do it. same is true for ml. with a few clicks in a suite you can run machine learning without ever writing a line of source code.

you are fucking ridiculous.

Hey, I'm a CS major, I get paid for internships and I'm interviewing for jobs with salaries between $60 and $80 grand a year.

People ask me to write their apps all the time. I tell them I will need to be paid. Usually they fuck off after that. You shouldve told this dude to fuck off when he tried to strongarm you into working for him for free.

You're a pussy, my guy. There's lots of money out there, you just need to not work for free for other people like a fucking idiot.

You're still an idiot. "Programmer" is the generic term for someone who can code. Software developer, developer, and software engineer are the terms that require actual experience and/or certification. You're an idiot.

>he tried to strongarm you into working for him for free.

No. I offered to work for free. If you had any reading comprehension you would know this.

>you just need to not work for free

I fucking told you that I wanted a real internship and couldn't get one.

>You're an idiot.
i believe that is exactly what you have proved yourself to be.
>Software developer, developer, and software engineer are the terms that require actual experience and/or certification.
now you are just trying to confuse me. how could you be a programmer without being a dev?

>how could you be a programmer without being a dev?
A scientist.

1. Stop working for free.

2. Do some other projects.

3. Apply somewhere other than the big 4. You're not there yet.

well around here programmers are a subclass of developers. software development is complex an you need a lot of people various designers and html/css or graphics specialists animators operators and people doing all sorts of other work that is not programming, like documenting organizing testing and providing and maintaining initial data. programmers are a subset of devs not the other way around.

>programmers are a subset of devs not the other way around.

Exactly wrong.

All developers are programmers.

Not all programmers are developers.

Go read some fucking job descriptions.

What's the best degree to get in Canada then?

>Alex Rogachevsky
Google just shows some smug slavapett. Why should I care about this fucker you're shilling?

Canada is shit for jobs, our economy is fucked due to government collusion with oil and gas companies.

Also, I'd never work for free.

you can sue in small claims court, though you are out a lot more probly, tell him you will anyway

like i said software development is a lot broader than programming. if you can't comprehend this simple fact you need to brush up on your education buddy. i think we only have programmers as about 50% of our dev team and that's quiet high on average.

If you don't program you're not a software dev.

sure you are if you develop software. see we don't call it programming anymore precisely because it encompasses so much more.

Developing software involves programming.

Excuse me but why the fuck are you working for free? I mean if you're gonna do it for free, at least make your own app!

yes involves just as building homes involves pouring concrete and putting bricks on top of each other. and guess what, it involves so much more. from designing, statics and roofing to installing the doors and windows, insulating painting builtin furniture and plumbing and machinery.

software development is similar about 10-30% of the work is programming. can be higher or lower depending on what you make of course.

What does a software developer who can't program do?

make views/frontends mostly (yeah they sometimes involve programming long long ago but nowadays not much), make graphic elements, animations, test, coordinate manage changes document whatever the fuck. if they are part of the dev team they are devs by definition.

to give you an example making presentations and various documents about our products is about 60% of the work done by my team.

you could make programmers do that it would be a huge waste of time and talent. so we have people for that. we also have people who make the frontends who are not programmers but obviously have some related education otherwise it would be very difficult to work with them. same goes for the testers. when a user report of a bug falls in the programmers will not bother even looking at it. there will be a guy who simply opens a ticket based on the email and phone who also must be quiet familiar with our work and products to be able to ask the right questions and phrase issues well enough btw, then it goes to some guy that knows the product a little bit better but still never programmed anything in his life except maybe ins school and he will try to reproduce the issue and update the ticket or close it with "user was high on something" then some junior dev takes a look at it and starts debugging if it's a real error they are not quiet programmers more like programmers in training. eventually a real programmer might take a look if the junior fails or made extensive enough changes otherwise it goes back to the testers etc...

What kind of company?

the company is industrial automation and my team is making the software for management and execution suits. most of our clients are pharma companies, but we are also in car manufacture and warehousing.

been dealing with powershell exclusively for my programming last 3 months. Sr. Software Dev

Labels are a bitch. Might be best you don't get hung up on the general ones.

>1. Stop working for free.

>2. Do some other projects.

>3. Apply somewhere other than the big 4. You're not there yet.

4. Apply for "programmerish" jobs. I started off as a software consultant helping sales.
5. Be willing to move
6. Apply for jobs that require clearance.

>engineering

Engcuck here. You realize every entry level engineering position in Canada gets spammed with hundreds of applicants?

The amount of engineering grads in Canada has doubled since 2000 and the job market for engineers has been utterly shit since oil dropped. It's a losing formula. Pic related, an entry mech e job in ontario I saw. Just do a quick search for the amount of entry level software positions vs engineering and you will see that computer science jobs are way more plentiful right now.

I'll further add that engineering companies value experience over everything. Whereas software jobs value proven skills and are way more likely to value a young worker if they prove their knowledge in the interview.

>working for free
nigga why

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