Awd offers only advantages and no downsides. how come there's still non-awd cars being produced then?

>t. terrible driver who doesn't know how to have tun

Depends on vehicle and snow. Obviously there are times where you obviously just want AWD or 4WD, but "garbage" is a little bit excessive.

Alright well it's very clear you live somewhere like CA or FL. RWD is garbage in snow. It's cute you take your miata into little suburbs with a quarter inch of snow and go "drifting" but when I need to go to work and roads are unplowed and shitty and I don't want to crawl at 30mph under the speedlimit I'll take my AWD car.

Only awd i see around are expensive audis and shitty 4 bangers

>That's why we don't have small Subarus anymore

In all fairness, that has quite a bit to do with safety standards as well.

You're funny.

>Maintenance downside
>Fuel economy downside

And in my opinion, they drive like ass in the snow.
Piggu understeer. I simply don't like the driving techniques to control one in a slide. I'd much rather be driving a RWD car at speed in the snow.
I guess you could make it send the power to the rear after you take off, but no one does. AWD tends to be 80:20 FR.
Even 50:50 split is a fucking pain in the ass mid corner wot imfo.

The real solution is cheaper, simpler, and easier.
Snow tires.

RWD is the only based configuration
+1 for MR.

What's funny is watching somebody in one of those with the center locked in the snow who thinks you can just go around a corner or countersteer like normal without it yawing all back and forth.

That's why people like 4wd.
You have none of the drive train losses of AWD during normal operation, but you have the full advantage of more driven wheels when you absolutely need it, plus 4WD can come with locking differentials making the car truely unstoppable.

But RWD is far easier and more intuitive to drive in the snow than any other drivetrain layout.
The only downside of the 2WD RWD set up is in deep snow or on steep inclines you can have a harder time getting moving.

And since we're talking about low grip driving situations,
LSD's are 'dangerous' in the snow. Coast lockup can send you sideways 'without warning'. An open diff is much more brain dead simple to drive.
High rev engine braking is a bad thing in the snow, drive train shocks and grip loads like engine braking is a bad thing, the best technique is obviously to leave it in gear and brake early and slowly. Do not try to engine brake in a panic situation in the snow you fucking morons, that's how you get sideways and then really have no control.

It's a Jeep Thing (TM)

Yeah FWD biased AWD in the snow is lame for other than not getting stuck. Full time 50:50 is really pretty good but you have to attack the corner the right way and if you plow in to it you're going to have to play AWD tricks to right yourself. I've never tried full-time rear-biased AWD but that seems like it would be ideal.

It's really a painful experience as the driver.
All you want to do is wot bang bang bang scrrrt but really you just understeer and lose all sensation as to which direction your wheels are pointing.

>tfw doing 80mph in a rwd truck on all seasons

Git gud

>LSD's are 'dangerous' in the snow.
proof? mechanical slip difs like torsen and rwd are a proven combo in the snow.

It's easier to get wheel slip, which to an inexperienced unattentive driver (women) can result in getting guttered.
More drive wheels is more good for more getting moving tho.

I've been pretty happy with torsen RWD in the snow. It's not magic, but it's better than helpless peg legging, and all you have to bear in mind is that both sides cans skip out more easily than you might initially think.

didnt know the had jeeps in australia

or snow

>But RWD is far easier and more intuitive to drive in the snow
Lmao you're actually retarded
AWD is infinitely superior for snow driving. You clearly have zero experience with either so i don't even know why you posted such inane garbage. What a doofus lol

That's why imo there's no excuse for not sliding around a parking lot first if you really care about driving in the snow. Even in the rain torsen rear has a way of suddenly breaking loose sideways all at once, but really the key is to get used to it so that instead of panic and fishtail or spinout you just apply a gentle correction and hold it until it's ready to come back in line.

Do you honestly believe brittany is going to go the car park and rip skidz to learn how to drive?

Back in the day in driver's ed they'd make people do that, or have stunt tires where the instructor would hit a button at random to simulate a blowout to get you used to having to maintain control.

Brittany? Nah. I just plain wouldn't sent Brittany into the snow at all if I could help it.

Tell me all about how AWD driving techniques are more intuitive than RWD.
>spoiler, they're not
Tell me all about how AWD feed back is more clear than RWD feed back in the snow
>spoiler, it's not

I used my words very carefully in that post.
I didn't say RWD was superior in the snow to AWD.
I said it's easier more intuitive. You cannot refute either point, because both are objective facts.

So you're on board with me then.
Women shouldn't be driving.
Now we need to figure out how to solve this issue culturally rather than legally to maintain a free state.

Also deport all nonwhites.

>heavy
>complex
>fragile
>understeer and oversteer at the same time
>yeah you get the best of both but you get the worst of both
>ur mum
>unnecessary if your car has enough frip to put its power down anyway

It's not even close to easier retard
RWD is much harder to drive in the snow and it's FAR less intuitive. I don't think you know what either of those words mean doorknob

You're responding to a troll, but if you use AWD of the sort meant for off road rally it's just a matter of learning how to pitch and work the car differently than you would with RWD. It's really intuitive once you get the feel for it outside of those odd conditions where you get all twisted up and all of a sudden it tosses you around in the wrong direction or you didn't set up right and just plow the way you would if you were to panic brake.

you're the only troll here faggot kys

T_T

it's so funny listening to retards try to describe something they've clearly never experience before. AWD trumps RWD for snow driving. The two aren't even comparable in terms of handling and acceleration. I've owned and raced both so I know.

To be fair if they're talking about lame AWD where you never know what the computer is going to do next or it's just not set up to do more than get you through low-traction situations then it's not nearly as natural.

Nah man. I live in Maine and drove a Charger through winters quite easily. Good snow tires and sandbags make it pretty damned easy.

yeah but awd is miles better

Are you stupid? RWD and FWD cars have computer aided traction control as well.

Hurr durr. I'm not talking about traction control. I'm talking about whether it distributes torque naturally and predictably, and if the basic setup is meant to claw your way off road or to actually handle.

This is true

I hate Subaru’s

The only thing you've raced is my cock, faggot.

>>>/blogspot/

awd/4wd isnt dominating simply because...
-less mileage
-more maintenance, 2x more driveshafts...
-dev cost is so high and demand so low
-most people don't live with more than 4 months of snow a year.
-heavier (see mileage)
-less trunk room, aside audis.
-more cramped than fwd.
-will get stuck just the same because no full diff lock and the average driver is a clueless tool.

That has nothing to do with drivetrain layout tardpocolypse. Even the unpredictable "claw" mechanism as you call it (it's called traction control tard) is actually quite predictable once you're used to it.
RWD is fucking garbage in snow.

It's called suspension geometry and chassis dynamics gay nigger faggot. Traction control is for Brittany.

I’m sure that’s great for someone who knows nothing about vehicles and driving. I would rather have a mechanically engaged part time transfer case with mechanically locking differentials. Both can be engaged or disengaged at will so I don’t prematurely wear my vehicle. I can also select between high and low ranges at will.

Real life isn't specs on Forza capn't chromosome. Chassis has no noticeable effect on tire traction on snow.

I don't know what Forza is, but I can assure you that you would appreciate the differences in chassis and suspension between, say, a suburban, a jeep, a volvo station wagon, an impreza, etc. if you were to drive each one in the snow. Stiffness metrics are not the only thing that define a chassis.

>chassis design has no effect on traction on snow

Just Prez/o/ things

pathetic

and given the option of each in a RWD and AWD drivetrain, the latter will always out perform the former in inclement conditions.
AWD with all-seasons handle better than RWD with winter tires. #fact

>no downsides
>weight

Sure, more often than not.

I might rather drive one of those Grumman mail trucks RWD + chains than 4WD + all seasons, though, for instance.

Perhaps but chaining up is a hassle.
plus chains on AWD would still be superior.

>AWD with all-seasons handle better than RWD with winter tires. #fact
That's just blatantly not true.
While drivetrain has an effect on handeling, grip has more of an effect than anything. And when you're comparing a snow tire car to an a/s car the snow tires will always out handle and out brake.

Depends on the snow tire and snow tbqh. Plenty of decent all seasons can give meh snow tires a run for their money in average conditions, in which case having drive to all wheels is the difference between a snow tank and getting around alright.

AWD brakes better than RWD.

*engine brakes
This is true

AWD doesn't matter for a good portion of the US that never sees snow. Its expensive and hurts fuel economy.

Awd cars tend to understeer if given too much power in a turn, and also can bog down in a drag race, so no they're not perfect in performance.

Outside of that poor mpgs more to break and go wrong....

It really doesn’t though if all four tires are contacting the ground, unless you’re talking about weight distribution

Dynamics, mate. We're talking how the whole vehicle moves and reacts, not how much traction you can get from each wheel at any given instant.

Most modern awd systems can only send like 5% of the power to the rear when it slips only. It's almost not worth having. Most awd systems will still leave you fucked if you ever wind up in a ditch. With 4x4 and some lockers you still have a slight chance.

>modern awd systems weight 50lbs max
This is bullshit.
A diff that's capable of handling 50% of the torque from a reasonbly powerful engine has to have some strength to it, and there's two of them, plus a center diff.
Why the fuck do you think the GTR is pigfat?

I wonder if he realizes that exhaust systems weigh in at over 100lbs.
I wonder if he realizes that seats typically weight around 80lbs.
I bet he'd have a heart attack if he knew how much a door weighed.

Plus the axles, plus the drive shaft, plus the rotational inertia thereof. A few hundred lbs this way or that way in a car and Veeky Forums will start talking about weight rather quickly.

>send like 5% of the power to the rear when it slips only
I call bs. Stop talking about things you don’t understand.

Well he's not entirely wrong.
Most AWD systems aren't really full time AWD anymore. They're 100% fwd until the confuser thinks something is slipping. They do this to meet strict fuel economy standards.

awd isn't going to help you slow down any faster so your comment about 30mph makes no sense

Oh, because I thought the whole thread has been about traction on snow

Or until power is demanded from a stop. Or kickdown when passing. Or cornering. Don’t be ridiculous, manufacturers don’t just throw it in for slips.

It is true that many switch to FWD while highway cruising. That only makes sense though, and doesn’t make you lose “””driving feel”””

And claiming 5% was outright retarded. For the sake of discussion, he was basically entirely wrong.

Actually 3 inch dual stainless exhaust on a long wheel base truck is like 75

That's correct. And that has to do actually getting from one place to another in the snow, not just ramming with full grip in whatever direction that might lead you at this moment and with whatever grip you might not have any more the next moment.

Pull the front driveshafts on a fwd biased awd system and see how fast you go. No slip based awd system is going to send power to the rear when passing unless you're on a sheet of ice. It's not going to do it in the corners either unless the wheels are slipping so you're basically driving a fwd with a bunch of extra weight.

Some of them keep a small amount of lockup by default and are reasonably proactive about increasing it. It's not going to get you around without the front halfshafts, but it can be enough to change roadgoing feel and to head off a bunch of minor slipping in the snow.

He's not wrong, most Torque converter Auto FWD based systems almost never use the rear wheels in normal driving conditions.

Nice try, Kyoichi. You arent fooling anyone.

Odd, because mine does all of the time.

It varies considerably depending on particular implementation, programming, sometimes settings.

I think the limits of lateral traction on snow are going to take effect before suspension geometry ever becomes a factor, unless everyone drives around with studded tires

>Odd, because mine does all of the time.
How can you tell? And what are your normal driving conditions?

Modern system uses clutch packs and electronics. Probably more though

Not really. How the chassis weight and inertia is controlled is pretty big. Try driving a big SUV through the snow and how it wobbles and pitches, and how the probably soild rear axle bumps around. Now try driving a rallycar through the snow and how it holds smooth and tight and you can toss the weight over the wheel that needs it.

Driving dynamics play a big role even in the snow.

Digital readout

Windy backroads, long freeway commutes, city streets. Plenty of ice and snow in the winter, plenty of dry during the summer.

Guess I’m just baffled at the whole no AWD until slip thing, because I’ve never driven a car like that in my life. And I’ve had plenty of AWD experience.

RWD is the only based configuration
+2 for MR.

When you regularly get snow dumps of 20+ cm at a time, yeah, I'll take AWD while seeing non AWD stuck trying to get out of a hilly intersection or often their own regular parking spot.

Subarus (am not a dyke) with proper winter tires goes through any amount of snow like butter. I've driven right after getting 40 cm (over 15 inches) and gave zero fucks because I felt safe.

Now, does that mena you can't drive a fwd car in heavy snow? With proper winter tires, you can yes! But an AWD with the same tires will less likely get stuck.

>itt money less hurr durrs Mah RWD

this

I drive an RX-8 with snow tires and no extra weight other than basic tools in the back. I get around in the snow better than most trucks/SUVs around here even when I turn DSC off for shenanigans. I'm sideways and spinning the tires all the way, but I still easily get around.

AWDs are heavier and more mechanically complex/require more poarts so auto makers dont want to make them or provide service contracts for them

same reason FWD exist, FWD linkages are slightly more complex but saving on a bit of metal per car for the driveline means saved money so FWDs are actually cheaper

>with snow tires
theres the thing

the reason fudds and vapebois are always spinning out is that they dont get proper tires, and think that the answer to starting to slide is to slam their foot down on the gas or brake. also, retards who cant get out of parking spots becauise they just gun it and get frustrated when their wheels just spin

>4k photo of FUCKING NOTHING, also it is upside-down

GAS THE PHONEPOSTERS
CONSOLE WAR NOW

>what are your normal driving conditions?
Sideways

because the engineers designing the cars are smarter than you