I honestly believe that most Christians don't actually believe in hell...

I honestly believe that most Christians don't actually believe in hell. Churches keep that doctrine in place because it's a good tool to convert people who don't really think about stuff but I think deep down even the clergy thinks that the classic idea of hell (unless you believe in Jesus exactly the way we do, you will burn forever) is bullshit.

Think about hard drugs: governments ban them and have programs to keep people away from them because we realize that they cause addiction and health problems, thus suffering. It's a moral thing for the government to take actions against them. Now, if you believe that not being a Christian causes going to hell, then that's an infinite times bigger issue then drugs. It's basically the biggest possible issue one can imagine: we are talking about millions of people marching towards a fate where they will suffer horribly for eternity because they believe in other religions or don't believe at all.

If they truly believed this is true, the only logical thing a Christian could work for is the eradication of all other faiths and atheism by any means. Saving millions from eternal torment objectively worth almost any price. (cont.)

(cont.)

The goal of Christian churches should be thus to gain control of states and create theocracies: ban every other religious teaching and the denying of their faith and make schools centers for religious indoctrination to ensure that only a minimal number of people won't be saved.

Instead what they do? They meekly try to convert individuals, talk about respecting other religions (what the fuck, how can you respect Islam or Buddhism as a Christian if you believe that they literally lead people to hell?), voice their opinion in comperatively inconsequential social issues etc. They don't even act at all as if they understood the gravity of the situation.

Because of that I'm certain that most Christians don't believe in the official doctrine, instead they personally believe in some alternative interpretation of hell: that it's not permanent, that nobody really goes there, or only the most immoral people go there etc.

> Saving millions from eternal torment objectively worth almost any price.
Christianity is not utilitarian, user. :^)

So what you are saying is that Christians cannot enforce Christianity without breaking their own rules (don't kill and such)? That's kind of a shaky territory, in Protestantism, you can get away with murder as long as you repent and still accept Jesus.

Also, I think you could enforce Christianity without committing too many sins. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion are not Christian values. The Bible doesn't deal with creating laws that ban certain books and ideas and having them enforced (unless of course they are against the faith itself, the Old Testament is full of stories like this), so it looks like you can get away with it.

christians believe in hell, they just make a lot of exceptions. even in antiquity christians had a hard time thinking of Aristotle in hell.

>Protestantism, you can get away with murder as long as you repent and still accept Jesus
It's not some game, man. There's nobody fooling God and "getting away with it". If you kill someone and are not truly repentant, from the depths of your soul, you will be barred from heaven.
Regardless of peaceful doctrine, every religion has been used for violence (that is not to say religion is violent). So each has to have certain doctrinal conditions to permit violence; usually this involves some type of purification after the fact. In Protestantism, you need to make an earnest effort to walk on the side of good. You should follow the ten commandments, but if you break one, you better be genuinely sorry for it or you'll have hell to pay.

Hi OP, I just wanted to share my opinion with you I hope it offers some insight.

I used to be part of a church that advertised hell. The community is skeptical of everything, and their minds have been conditioned for centuries by the churches. Not every church, but you know the kind I'm talking about;

>"Well you know what the Buddha say"
>"DEMON WORSHIPPER"

People fail to realize that Christianity isn't the only religion that exorcises demons, in Islam and in Buddhism, they exorcise bad spirits. Even India, many of the gods Christians think are demons, they are only sent to Earth to destroy demons so as to restore the balance back for humanity and the heavens.

This type of Christianity comes from outside of the New Testament. All of the traditions are like memes that come from outside of the teachings in the Gospels.

That is why it is important to read what Jesus teaches, as opposed to what people teach about Jesus. Same wit Paul, people will try to convince you Paul ruined Christianity when really, we need to read what Paul teaches about Jesus.

Denominations are just associations, because we are all one in Christ; even those who "haven't yet converted" they are not damned, because everyone deserves salvation, Christians also forget to tell you before they converted, they were just like the sinner.

The church I went to talked about "who goes to hell" like who the f? God makes the calls, not man.

>I honestly believe that most Christians don't actually believe in hell.

You'd be surprised. Humans have the capacity to believe contradictory things, as Orwell noted with his term doublethink. Christians in general might have a fairly sophisticated view of Hell but most do believe in it in some form, despite the flatly contradictory concept that God is omni-benevolent.

Still though, if things like murder can be forgiven, how much of sin is ok if it's done for the greater good? Protestants talk about horrible murderers repenting and getting saved all the time.

I don't see why someone who is ready to use violence to create this theocratic state wouldn't repent from the from the depths of their soul, knowing full well that what they are doing is wrong, but it's a necessary evil to make sure more people get saved (and if Christianity is true, objectively more people would be saved in a theocracy like I was describing.)

>in Protestantism, you can get away with murder as long as you repent and still accept Jesus
Isn't that a Vatican intelligence thing, the confessional?

The dialect seems to run everything now, you can't even have a heaven without a hell, a God without a devil, a heretic without the pious..I think this is what draws people into religion, a black and white world...aside from a childhood indoctrination into spooky cloud fairies who know all of course. The only other force is a sense of belonging appealing to the basic tribal monkey aspect.

Not all Christians. Anhilationism defines a lot of Protestant denominations.

>And if your eye causes you to fall into sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where ‘the worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched. For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”
Mark 9: 47-50

This is some hot heresy, my dude.

It wasnt originally written in English btw, so thats not accurate being used as evidence.

I'm pretty sure that you are a heretic, if not an apostate. No mortal deserves salvation, in fact quite the opposite. We all deserve damnation. There will be many in those who say lord, lord did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, and do many wonders in your name? And Jesus will say to them depart from you who practice lawlessness. I never knew you.

Can you read greek?

>"Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

hell isn't even part of the christian theology, bible speaks of "eternal separation from god", not "eternal suffering". non-believer's soul just ceases to exist when he/she dies.

>And if your eye causes you to fall into sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where ‘the worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.

>We all deserve damnation.

>child dies at age 3
>he deserves to be tortured for eternity
>somehow this is justice

Tell me again how you can't have proper morals without being a Christian.

>I honestly believe that most Christians don't actually believe in hell.
No. Many would be religious because of the fear of hell.

There is no one single "Christian" belief. You have one extreme like baptist who blow Hell way out of proportion. You have some groups that believe you can avoid hell if you collect enough brownie points to cancel out any bad things you have done. Then you have the other side where they are "Christian" in name only, that kill, fuck and all that shit and think they will still go to heaven just because of a deathbed prayer.

> If they truly believed this is true, the only logical thing a Christian could work for is the eradication of all other faiths and atheism by any means.
That's they way it used to be for centuries before the hippy peace and love of the 19th/20th century became dominant. Now we must all be tolerant and understanding of other faiths. That doesn't mean Christians think they are right though.

Faith is personal, so of course everyone has their own views of hell. Whether they are right or not is another matter. The whole point of freewill is making your own choices. God/Jesus made it clear what is required to get to heaven, if you know the rules and don't follow them, it's your own fault.

>most Christians don't actually believe in hell
They do. It's a crucial part of Christian theology.

>Churches keep that doctrine in place because it's a good tool to convert people
No, they keep it in place because they actually believe that it's true. Remove your tinfoil hat.

> the only logical thing a Christian could work for is the eradication of all other faiths and atheism by any means
There is really only one way to work at it, and that's to imitate Christ. You can't force people into being proper Christians.

All of humanity is in a fallen state and hell is how a fallen soul experiences God. The only way out of it is through Christ.

>muh free will

You just demonstrated why Christians don't take the idea of hell seriously. Do you honestly believe that it's worth to let people suffer for eternity just because their "free will" doesn't get violated? When someone tries to kill himself, people call the police to try to stop him. If someone get addicted to drugs we have interventions. Yet most Christians seem to be perfectly fine to let people burn forever by using "free will" as an excuse. No, if they really believed this idea, they wouldn't care about anyone's free will, because it's just inconsequential compared to eternity. Either they don't really believe in hell or they don't really give a shit about people other than themselves and maybe their loved ones, which begs the question if Christianity really is the faith that produces actually moral people.

>to let people suffer
It's fully up to them. People will be fully exposed to God on the last day and those whose are spiritually ill will suffer in his presence due to their own faults. The suffering is self-imposed. There's nothing other Christians can do about it than pray, love others and educate those who are willing to learn.

>There is really only one way to work at it, and that's to imitate Christ. You can't force people into being proper Christians.

Religious indoctrination has been demonstrated to work time and time again. If I was convinced that everyone is sentenced to hell unless they convert to Christianity I would want to set up a system where
1. it's forbidden to preach other religions or atheism
2. Christianity is taught from pre-school.

If hell is real, a secular state is a state that doesn't care at all about the well-being of it's citizens.

Btw I don't think that the average Christian doesn't believe in hell. They probably do but don't really think about it's implication. But I think the Christians that have power and/or really think about this stuff (churches, theologians, politicians who call themselves Christians) don't.

>People will be fully exposed to God on the last day and those whose are spiritually ill will suffer in his presence due to their own faults

Elaborate pls. Are you talking about people being judged by their actions, not by their faith?

>People will be fully exposed to God on the last day and those whose are spiritually ill will suffer in his presence due to their own faults.

And what guarantee do you have that you won't be among them in case, let's say, Muhammed was actually right?

>Religious indoctrination
Most people in the West tend to be against it and the clergy avoids making politically unpopular statements. In my country, Catholicism is taught in state-owned elementary schools and high schools, although as an optional subject and secularists are fighting against it. It's also not a very effective method of producing quality Christians, in my opinion, people just say what's expected for an easy grade and that's it.

But hell, I'm a Christian and I'm all for a Christian non-secular state. If I was in politics I would strive towards that. The modern churches doesn't really have that much political influence in most Westerns countries, but in the places that they are influential, they really are trying to strenghten Christianity.

I'm talking about sin acting as a disease of the soul which makes the diseased inable to experience God with joy. When exposed to God, sinful people will suffer. Faith and Christ is how a sinner becomes righteous, not by his own actions, but through faith in Christ. Whether it's possible to somehow accept Christ without being aware of it, I don't know, maybe it is.

>Think about hard drugs: governments ban them and have programs to keep people away from them because we realize that they cause addiction and health problems, thus suffering. It's a moral thing for the government to take actions against them.

maybe the goverment should be a little amoral abou this particular issue as it often is completely immoral about so many things, and it suddenly woudnt be so much of a issue or even such a large problem

same thing goes for the rest of your parable, every time christians got it in their heads to save people from eternal suffering it just caused appaling sad shit to happen, often directly perpetrated by same christians

also, the basic logic of it is fundamentaly unchristian, its live and let live, and let him who is sinfull be sinfull still and so on, not hurr we must pull their nails out to make sure they dont suffer- yes christians did shit like that but that was their failure as christians

I don't really have any guarantee that I won't be among those who will suffer even if Christianity is the truth as my faith could be an empty and fruitless one. Just verbally professing the Christain faith isn't enough. I don't know whether any Muslims can be saved or not, I'm Orthodox and it's not considered heretical among us to believe in salvation outside the visible Church.

the kingdom of god is ''not of this world'', also give to cezar what is cezars... etc. or in other words a christian shouldnt give a fuck about the state or other such institutions, all such things, states, governments, courts, nations, they are all ''of the world'' and the world is a pile of moving corpses ruled by evil and devoid of true life

There is no "necessary evil" in christianity.

>person dies at age x
>he deserves to be tortured for eternity
>somehow this is justice
Being young doesn't mean being without sin or innocent or pure of heart or righteous.

Lie

Why did he ignore proddie fairh

They are hypocrites

If most people don't believe in Hell how are these churches using Hell as a tool for conversion? Your logic is inherently flawed.

They are atheists

Maybe all atheist

seventh day adventists don't