Sparta women

Alright counter point. Spartan women basically had the exact same privileges as Spartan men (running business, drinking wine, eat the same amount etc etc) and they were laughed out of Greece. Why would their women fighting make any difference, espically when other Greeks described their woman as basic amazonians.

Why would they have the women fight when they had literal meat shields in the Helots?

>sparta
>running business
>drinking wine

The women could have yeah. Nit saying the did 100% all the time, but even that notion would have gotten them laughed at no?

The paraguayans lost a third of their population in the war of the triple alliance. When you're losing, really losing, there's no luxury of dividing rear line and frontline duty.

>could eat the same amount
So this is the power....of Sparta...woah

Nah my point is that during Ancient Greece that shit wasn't allowed. Women usually ate little compared to men as the men need it more. To most Greeks it would look retarted to them to see that Spartan women ate just as much as the men.
I'm just using it a an example. Also

>didn't adresss point. Makes insults instead? Noice.

Absolutely deny.
Example: Hagia Sophia. Or any byzantine church.

the byzantines didn't have a dark age.

Damn. I used to laugh about that for years. Good to know though.

Also where does everyone usually get their history info?

Books, wiki find new things to read books about.

Thanks man. Going to bed now. Was fun discussion

So I guess officially Veeky Forums says my teacher is full of shit? Seems good.

No.

Spartan women were in charge of bearing children, telling slaves to do shit, and beating slaves. People wrote down what Spartans did and did not do. They obsessed over them.

This shit didn't happen.

>Why would their women fighting make any difference, espically when other Greeks described their woman as basic amazonians.
Because it runs counter to every single facet of Greek culture regarding war, the roles of men, and the roles of women.

This is literally the difference between "feared killers who aren't good for much else" and "Oh, look, the fucking faggots are pretending to be tough again."

Absolutely fucking nobody would have taken them seriously, and the idiot to propose the idea would probably have been exiled for bring such a massive faggot-much like you should be.

>when they had literal meat shields in the Helots?
They didn't you stupid fucking faggot. Helots did the exact same duty that poor-and yes, slaves-did in EVERY greek city state: They skirmished and foraged. The actual clash of lines involved precisely zero helots, and they'd have run off the moment the phalanxes started to move, and would literally all of the psioli on the field. The role was so utterly irrelevant that poorer or small cities might use children to do it.

>Women usually ate little compared to men
Because they're fucking smaller, and engage in less physical work you fucking cunt.

>Nah my point is that during Ancient Greece that shit wasn't allowed
Prove it.

Sounds more like something Spartans would say to intimidate their enemies and look tough.
>Haha we Spartans are so badass even our women could take you pussies in a fight.
Could also work as a way to make the spartan men fight.
>Even our WOMEN would lay their lives down for Sparta, why won't you? Too much of a little bitch?

Not every Spartiate and member of the Perioikoi mustered into battle every time there was a war.

Some of them had to stay behind to keep the Helots in check.

>its wartime
>sparta must be empty of defended by women

this is horrible, what school are you attending and why does it allow fake history?

There were domed roofs in the Byzantine Empire like that one user said but I'd just like to add that European buildings don't have flat roofs like eastern ones because of snow. Snow is heavy as fuck and could collapse a flat roof, pointy roofs are designed to make snow slide off and on to the ground.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sparta

>favorite period post-roman/middle ages
>still calls them dark ages

*shudders

south park is not history you massive faggot

I seem to remember that when a certain other city state actually marched to Sparta (I'm thinking Thebes under Epimonondas) there was a famous moment where the city just let them in because they didn't k ow what to do while the army was away. I'm pretty sure none of the Spartan Women took up at.s in this case and that the Thebans (if that's who it really was) were sorta surprised that they didn't because of all the stories. In short, Spartan Women were tough and all that compared to the incredibly passive women in other parts of Greece, but expected to fight, they were not.

I wanna frig a Veeky Forums spartan qt.

Due to the lack of manpower, the Spartan women were active in offering missiles to the defenders as well as taking away the wounded and providing food and drink to those who required it.

in any case there is no way women fought alongside men in the regular army because they simply don't have the same strenght a normal soldier had

why even have skirmishers if they were so useless? Which isn't true considering Spartans got fucking rekt exactly by skirmishers.

Holy shit you fucking faggots never get to the fucking point. In the year 272 BC, Sparta was under siege by the faggot King Pyrrhus (after he failed in conquering Rome) of Epirus. Pyrrhus had at least over 30,000 guys with him, while Sparta had 2,000 to oppose the shit. Both sides took extremely heavy losses. Sparta won the battle and killed Pyrrhus.

Yeah, and during that siege, women were in it too.

>dropped a stone from the roof
WE WERE WARRIORS

>faggot King Pyrrhus
DELET THIS YOU FUCKING BASTARD REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>an entire race of sexy tomboys reputed as being the most beautiful women in all of Greece
>they are also intelligent with a wicked sense of humor

Sounds heavenly. The men must have been truly homosexual to have produced so little children.

>but to also defend the homeland when the men went out and fought
But Spartans never fucking went out and fought.

no one did in the 19th century usage. But they had their low points too.

>Sparta won the battle and killed Pyrrhus.
While Phyrrus did die during a siege, it wasn't that one. Sparta didn't even have walls.

>so someone must have attacked it
In general the Spartans weren't threatened by someone attacking them from the outside, but by the Helots revolting. And this threat was pretty constant. Which is why they were always hesitant to go on longer expeditions.

>They didn't you stupid fucking faggot. Helots did the exact same duty that poor-and yes, slaves-did in EVERY greek city state: They skirmished and foraged. The actual clash of lines involved precisely zero helots, and they'd have run off the moment the phalanxes started to move, and would literally all of the psioli on the field. The role was so utterly irrelevant that poorer or small cities might use children to do it.

Neodamodes were a class of citizen formed out of helots who served as hoplites for a while. It was created after the success of Brasidas' expedition to Thrace during the Peloponessian War, that used helots as hoplites, and later granted them freedom.

>who served as hoplites for a while

Who had served*

Also OP what you're describing was true for the wives of samurai during Azuchi-Momoyama period, and for many steppe tribes, especially Sarmatians.

>military focused culture
>no walls

how come no one simply conquered them?

>which king was it that brought the literacy rates up and actually set up a good society before he died and it all fell to shit?

Reminds me of Charlemagne. He introduced a standardized scripture (carolingian minuscle) and supposedly improved literacy (to whatever extent. he certainly didn't have serfs taught how to read or anything like that).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian_Renaissance

Based Charlemagne doesn't get enough credit for his influence on European culture and learning desu
it's always just about how he was the first western emperor in the middle ages

>how come no one simply conquered them?

Because the Spartans having the best-skilled warriors is not just a meme. Also who would conquer them? The Persians were btfo'd by the Greeks in 480 BC. The other poleis were either too busy being paralyzed by infighting (stasis) or had no armies on par with the Spartans.

>best warriors
>yet got bitchslapped by Thebes
>and Athenes

Wouldn't there be archaeological evidence of battles with female skeletons and shit.

I'm a history major and spartan women did not fight with the enemy but in fact had sex with him willingly and passionately then spartan males had to raise their wives sons.

They were made fit because it was thought to improve child-bearing abilities and also being fit to perform daily routines and "chores".

Fear is a strong word.
You don't try and overtake a city-state that you fear.

the only reason as to why there was a sort of developed equality was because men were always either training or fighting. It developed out of an absence of the oppressor.

In Athens, boys/men were nourished more fully than women.

If the best you can do is correct ones grammar, you might inhibit your urges to shit on others.

From what I know the importance the Spartans put on female fitness was mostly because they thought fit women would bear fit offspring.

My high-school history teacher said that in AD435 the Visigoths were sacking Byzantium, and then a spartan army defeated the Visigoths using bronze age armor and weapons. High-school history hurt me.

Toward the Hellenistic period I recall ancient historians blamed Sparta fall from power to women owning most of the property.

>why even have skirmishers if they were so useless?
Because forming a phalanx is a long, slow process even without the men being pelted with stones, arrows, and javelins. If you're not able to form because people keep getting wounded, concussed, killed, or run off the chase the psioli, you may get hit by a fully formed force when you're milling around.

They're also considerably more dangerous if they're left totally unopposed and are able to walk uncotested into your flanks and rear when the phalanxes meet.

More importantly, because that isn't how it works you fucking faggot. People weren't showing up to war with a bag of rocks or a sling+eating knife because they thought it was a good tactical choice, they did this because that was what they had. Psioli were what they were, and greeks got what use out of them they could. Later shifts towards using more skirmishers involves a far better equipped class of men, and even then, they were never a decisive fighting arm.

>Which isn't true considering Spartans got fucking rekt exactly by skirmishers.
Precisely twice, One when cut off with limited food and water on an island, by a force that outnumbered them by an order of magnitude, and which had plenty of hoplites, and once when a small force led by an utterly incompetent commander got jumped. That's it.

It wasn't a birth rate issue. Spartans could fail out of the spartiate class, or LITERALLY sell out. Getting back in was usually not possible. Even with a higher than average birth rate, the spartans numbers would dwindle.

>Neodamodes were a class of citizen formed out of helots who served as hoplites for a while. It was created after the success of Brasidas' expedition to Thrace during the Peloponessian War, that used helots as hoplites, and later granted them freedom.
Entirely true. Still doesn't support the idea of "helot meat shields."

Because they weren't all talk.

>and athens
You mean the athens that lost the damn war to sparta?

sparta women were trained to be fit for child bearing which was considered their battlefield.

With state of medicine back then, it had bigger mortality rate than actual battle too.