Is the modern bulgarian nation the natural continuation of a 15 century tradition, cultural and ethnic identity in the region, or is it a made up thing? Reading about the Russo-Turkish wars and the diplomacy and propaganda surrounding these eastern empires it looks like the Russians invaded an area mostly populated with ethnic and cultural turkish people, and there were aided by a violent minority, which was later set up as a puppet state and proceeded to "cleanse" the land of its native turkish inhabitants. The bulgarians, looks like, were very few and the russians only made up this ethnic bulgarian culture for them and gave them the state so they can be a puppet and later be added to Russia as part of its pan-slavic idea. They did similar things to other areas in the Balkans, including Romania, which at the time hadn't discovered its fetish for french culture and art and was using cyrilic and speaking a slavic dialect.
Thus I think that bulgarians are mostly turkish people, who live under the false assumption that they are russians.
Also, please argue with facts, not with propaganda and emotional statements. We are looking to find the truth here, not to find out about muh feels and muh ancestors.
Take any Central/Eastern European "nation" and you can bet most of it was made up in the 19th century
Not to say these cultures weren't built on history, customs, legends, language, etc. but a lot of it was constructed at a time when Romantic nationalism was the coolest thing around and these people were trying hard to assert themselves within large, multiethnic empires
Noah Martinez
In the case of the Balkans primary sources seem to disagree, as the Ottoman empire was actively suppressing, not promoting national identity among its subjects. There was a small revival movement among the people living in modern Bulgaria, and some joined in, but if you examine the sizes of their revolts against the sultan (their rebel armies were a couple to several hundred men in size) you can see they were a minority - the volunteers or drafted forces sent to crush these rebellions, which were people from that same area, were ten times larger in size. The Bulgarian identity it seems then was created, or at least greatly exaggerated and enhanced, by the russian pan-slavic idea. Thats how modern bulgarians ended up as more russian, instead of more thracian, in their understanding of history and culture. They were made up in Russia, not in Turkey.
Jason Murphy
i don't think you can slavifie that many Turks that quickly
is there a serious basis for this theory beyond anonymous posts on a Bhutanese beef futures exchange forum? Because I'd like to read it.
Isaac Howard
Russian and german letters and essays from the period, I've read analysis of them. Bismarck specifically pushed the pan-slavic idea and Russia nation building in the Balkans, as he thought this will prevent them from staying in peace for too long and reforming, as well as prevent them from becoming strong allies with France and England (who were allied with Turkey).
Also Al Jazeera made a documentary about the turks being chased out and how the bulgarian minority repressed and eventually took over with propaganda and cleansing. youtu.be/Hp5bBA7pfE8
Remember, Bulgaria was a fascist state for half its modern history, and a communist state for the other half. Only recently are they trying (and failing) to be a free country with a democracy.
Oliver Edwards
>asks for serious answers and facts >pulls assumptions out of his ass and Al Jazeera memereport excellent thread, keep going
David Bennett
This is the Turkish shitposter taking his trip off, isn't?
Henry Jackson
lmfao kill yourself, retarded roach bulgarians had been on the balkans long before turks showed up and most remained christian throughout ottoman rule
Jaxon Scott
Asian tribe appeared in Bessarabia when they asked tzar Vladimir to let them inhabitate Valachia.
>Romania, which at the time hadn't discovered its fetish for french culture and art and was using cyrilic and speaking a slavic dialect. Wait, what? Cyrilic was used, indeed, but it was always a romance language. Everyone called moldovans and wallachians vlachs(latin speaking faggots) since the beginning of the second millenium.
Noah Rodriguez
Insults are not arguments.
This is too late, eastern roman chroniclers talk about a bulgarian people or state from around the 6th century. They had the bulgarian successor to the throne as a prisoner exchange in Constantinople about that time.
The bulgarian state started and for a long time remained mostly in Wallachia, they only crossed the Danube later, and eventually lost the land north of it. So a turkic people founded a state there when the romans withdrew, and the same turkic people founded medieval Bulgaria. Thats not the point, the point is that these bulgars were always just the aristocracy of a small, low population nation, and that when the Ottomans took over and lived there for 500 years they settled and colonized the area, and when the Russo-Turkish wars "liberated" the Balkans it was mostly inhabited by turks. Then a minority of slavs, who the russians convinced are bulgarians, and descendants of the rightful rulers of bla bla bla, you know the drill, so the majority of the population was forced to convert, their property confiscated, they were persecuted and chased out, and so on. This thread is about the new bulgarian nation, the modern bulgarians, being made up from a memory of what used to be the bulgar kingdom in the early middle ages, even though most bulgarians today have absolutely nothing to do with it culturally or ethnicaly, and that bulgars are an extinct species.
Isaiah Wood
>Insults are not arguments. Never insulted you. Pulling shit out of your ass is not arguments.
Julian Bennett
You're confusing ethnic Turks who've lived in Bulgaria with actual Bulgarians.
>Also, please argue with facts, not with propaganda and emotional statements
You've done just that, Turk.
Nathaniel Walker
If we remove ethnic turks from 19th century newly formed russian backed Bulgaria it would lose 90% of its population. The point is that the russians took turkish land, inhabited by turks, and gave it to the terrorists who were causing trouble there. They only did that because they knew that they can't get away with adding it to Russia right now, with Britain and France watching, so they installed some gangs of rebels, brainwashed them into thinking they are slav/russians, and thought they can just add it to the empire later, diplomatically. Sadly for them the russian who was put in charge broke international peace treaties, invaded Rumelia and annexed it, so he was exiled and replaced by a german. Bulgaria was german puppet until the end of WWII, when Russia finally regained it, and lost it in 1991.
Read some history.
Charles White
"Turkic" only in terms of culture,they're were of East Iranian Origin.
Jeremiah Reed
>Read some history
I've read enough to know that your theorem is mostly null and void.Its true that were was a large Muslim population there, but to claim that they were the majority would be idiotic at best.
Robert Edwards
Gypsies are from east Iran, maybe, not the general population. And gypsies came during Ottoman times.
Aaron Parker
We know they were a majority everywhere in the Balkans, because they paid less tax. Its accounted for that most people were muslims, and very few paid the infidel taxes.
Michael Russell
Bulgarian has no culture, they adopted it from Russians and Serbs, mentality is gypsy-turkish.
Mason Adams
t. Mehmet
Parker Perry
This. Russian goal was full annexion and assimilation of Bulgaria as part of Slavic empire. German policy wasnt pro-Russian, they prevented annexation and insisted on independent state with further pro-german monarch.
Nathan Bell
t. srbe srbovic
Sebastian Ward
t. Ahmed Kodjiaahmed Ahmedopolus.
Dominic Garcia
Balkans are a meme, there is literally no fucking difference between Bulgarians, Serbians and Romanians, the absolute same people, yet they still argue every single day about shit that happened 9329423 years ago, just because muh nationalism and different name of the country. Its like Bavarians arguing with Saxonians, all those states should've been a united coutnry right now.
And dont let me start on Greek, who are literally slavs in the north and turks in the south, thinking they are muh ancient Hellas.Or absolute meme states like Fyrom or Kosovo. Just make it 1 country and they could prosper, but no, slavic retards should genocide eachother beause reasons
Leo Young
this entire thread doesn't contain a single source
Grayson Thomas
Those threads are made daily by some butthurt turk with identity crisis whit dreams about the Ottoman empire, dont expect actual sources from such "people"
Nicholas Long
I posted an hour long documentary featuring turkish, iranian, american and british professors, employed in leading universities around the world, specializing in Ottoman empire and Balkan history. youtu.be/Hp5bBA7pfE8[Embed] None has seen or refuted it. You are like Youtube comments, just insulting and posting from emotion instead of looking for the truth.
Wyatt Richardson
but that video doesn't confirm anything you said in the OP. Am I being baited?
Aiden Reyes
That video is full of academics saying what was said in the OP.
Blake Gonzalez
when exactly?
Robert Morris
Throughout. No, I won't point you to a 15 second soundbite you can take out of context. Watch the thing.
Jeremiah Walker
sorry I'm not watching a 45m video to maybe find something that partially confirms a statement in the OP. What you said contradicts every mainline historical source. I was hoping you could provide solid evidence but you were unable
Jack Hernandez
>Just make it 1 country and they could prosper, but no, slavic retards should genocide eachother beause reasons If there was a United States of Europe (French Republic was the closest we got, EU only encourages all this nonsense) maybe this could have happened. The way you talk dismissively of these petty nations should be extended to Europe in general.
Levi Clark
>sorry i wont examine your evidence, because it contradicts my views
If you need any more proof that you are a turk, you must be really turkish.
Isaiah Ramirez
>STILL no evidence shown
Joshua Sullivan
40 minutes of evidence, dictated by academics, in video form.
David Brooks
if it's 40 mins it shouldn't be hard to point out one in particular that helps your case
Kayden Baker
but thats the natural way that happened in most of Europe - smaller states united in one nation because they are exactly the same people - Spain, UK, Germany, France etc. Only eastern euros still bicker for small things, hell even Czechoslovakia fucking balkanized. Balkans are literally the same people genetically(maybe exclude Slovenia and some parts of Croatia), have the same culture, have resources and manpower, they could be a great country if they united
Julian Nguyen
>have the same culture we don't even have the same language or religion let alone the same culture
Wyatt Cooper
The whole fucking movie is about my case. You are presented with evidence, and refuse to examine it, and claim that none exists. You are intellectually dishonest, and its obvious to any neutral reader that you have nothing of value to contribute. Have a good day.
David Murphy
you have a 40+ minute movie and you are unable to point out a single instance of any historian saying anything that helps your argument.
Angel Sanchez
The parisian language (modern french) wasn't spoken in all of France until much after its unification. Similar in Italy, where they still have their "dialects", that are so distinct they might as well be different languages, and every italian learns first his local language, then the official italian language.
Nathaniel Diaz
agreed, Italy doesn't have a homogenous culture and neither does France. They unified despite that, not because of it
Ethan Lewis
>we don't even have the same language or religion let alone the same culture
how is the religion of Romania, Bulgaria and Serbia different? Yeah, the only difference is the Romanian Language, but otherwise those countries are exactly the same. And yeah, im talking about the white countries only, muslim shitholes like albania or bosnia
Caleb Lewis
Croatia and Slovenia are catholic. And Serbs and Bulgarians can hardly understand each other at all, except in very general meaning
Elijah Wood
>m-muh Turk majority lel
Isaiah Kelly
im sure that the different regions of Germany had hard times understanding eachother too in the begining, their languages are close enough to make it work after a hundred years of unification with some work on it. Croata and Slovenia are just technically Balkan, i exclude them because they are historically butthurt and always trying to be "western" so i dount they will want to join them either way, the point is of uniting the only historically relevant countries in one bigger one-Bulgaria, Serbia and Romania(well, they werent relevant pretty much at all, but they are already composed of pretty much only Hungarian and Bulgarian land so theres that), + meme states like Fyrom, Montenegro and Moldova
Jeremiah Wood
>map by Guillaume Lejean, notable anti-turkish propagandist >he quite literally made it up based on the inns he stayed in while traveling >zero research other than him walking around and talking to tavern owners he stayed at
Easton Edwards
LEL E L
Joseph Gonzalez
...
Noah Parker
>or is it a made up thing?
Every nation is "made up."
Gabriel Taylor
Is there a more deluded and butthurt nation than the turks in existence?Holy shit, you guys are worse than our lovely Argentinian neighborus who wish they were white
Asher Howard
>Heinrich Kiepert He is even worse, here is a map he made for 1878. Note how he isn't aware that greeks and turks aren't the same people.
Colton Allen
so its all just ebil white man's propaganda against the poor little turk?
>T-THEY KEEP US DOWN
Jose Sanchez
LOL O L
Samuel Jenkins
lol turks also do this? make up shit about their neighbouring nations so they can talk shit about them? reminds me of hungarians
Brandon Ross
>muh your nation and your people don't exist, therefore you can take rapefugees in because you're migrants just like them
