Did the Holocaust happen? not trolling...

Did the Holocaust happen? not trolling, but generally curious as to how we came about the exact number of 6 million Jews killed, and how this was different from mass killings of almost any war.

Extra points for citations

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_(film)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_concentration_camp
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Höfle_Telegram
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korherr_Report
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicides_in_Nazi_Germany
nytimes.com/1989/11/12/weekinreview/ideas-trends-auschwitz-revisionism-an-israeli-scholar-s-case.html
youtube.com/watch?v=UOjyq2CwcdI
dresden.de/media/pdf/infoblaetter/Historikerkommission_Dresden1945_Abschlussbericht_V1_14a.pdf
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

> how this was different from mass killings of almost any war
it was done industrially

>Did the Holocaust happen?

Yes

> not trolling, but generally curious as to how we came about the exact number of 6 million Jews killed,

The primary source for it was the Anglo-American committee of Inquiry's findings about population statistics from pre and post-war Europe.

>and how this was different from mass killings of almost any war.


In most wars, you didn't have deliberate extermination of conquered peoples with the express goal of removing said people from the planet.

Well, the original plan was to have specialized units called Einsattsgruppen just kill all of the Juden en situ.

As it turns out, those units had a lot of burnout. Since most of the Jews had already been herded into ghettos, and mass deportations were common in wartime, it made sense just to intern all of them and let forced labor, no food, and plague cut down on their numbers.

Later on, specialized extermination camps were used to help out with the aforementioned starvation and disease, especially to remove Jews that couldn't work.

The numbers come from taking the numbers from the Wannsee Conference and subtracting the number of Jews that were still alive to be recorded in censuses when the war ended, and from the surviving Nazi documents on the Final Solution.

If there's a specific thing you'd like a source on, I have a large Holocaust info folder because Stormfags are easier to troll than tumblr feminists.

>Did the Holocaust happen?
Yes. Parts of Eastern Europe and cities like Thessaloniki had well-documented Jewish pluralities until the Nazis came along - where did they go?

>how we came about the exact number of 6 million Jews killed
Personally, the precise numbers are irrelevant to me. I naturally assume that some calculations were exaggerated considering the circumstances of WW2 and Nazi Germany, but I believe there was a highly ambitious and intentional cleansing with a high body count.

>and how this was different from mass killings of almost any war.
It was perpetrated against a group that didn't pose an obvious military or demographic threat. The geopolitical and especially demographic, which is usually the motivation for ethnic cleansing, were minimal. It makes it look more sinister and twisted than usual.

I think there is reason enough to dispute the numbers dead and the methods of the killings in total, but yes, it did happen. Jews, commies and other people were killed systematically, though I have my own doubts about how many this system killed itself (mass executions and gasses with incineration) vs. general wartime casualties, like shitty living conditions and disease. This was common in Europe, allied or axis controlled, from testimony. We can argue to intention, but let's get real, no one really cared in POW's were sick and dying from shitty conditions, so I think a large amount of apathy could also apply, as opposed to systematic in all forms.

t reddit

t faggot

Seems sketchy to leave it to consensus reports, being from around the area of Thessaloniki myself, i can tell you consensus reports are barely legit with many reports changed by the law to support land claims against the Macedonians. Not to mention the fear Jews would have to report themselves as Jews post war. Or the ones that just wouldve fled or died by natural causes.

do you have reports from concentration camps or Einsattsgruppen that suggest a similar number?

Not either of them, but pretty much every genocide ever is calculated based on census data for death tolls.

Not OP, but what exactly is the truth about the work camps vs. death camps? Some /pol/ infographics try to argue that the Jews had cinemas, pools, and all sorts of recreational facilities. Was stuff like that even availible for the inmates/Jews to use? And where do people get the argument from that the majority of Jews that died during the Holocaust died as a result of Typhus?

The typhus thing isn't wrong per se but only because deliberate executions were rarer than forcing prisoners to produce labor until they died. Putting someone in a work camp and keeping them there until they die from exposure/malnutrition/etc. is still murder.

>Some /pol/ infographics try to argue that the Jews had cinemas, pools, and all sorts of recreational facilities.

They're probably referencing to this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_(film)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_concentration_camp

The tl;dr on this is that the Nazis had one nice looking camp they used to show everyone that they were treating people humanely and that nothing was going on. Few stayed there, and most died or were deported to work/death camps anyway.

Not the guy you responded to, but

>Not OP, but what exactly is the truth about the work camps vs. death camps?

There were only 6 death camps, if you define death camp as "everyone who went in was killed more or less on the spot except such inmates as were necessary to keep the camps themselves running. You had the 4 Aktion-Reinhardt camps, Birkenau, and Majdanek.

>Was stuff like that even availible for the inmates/Jews to use?

Not the Jews; there were, on occasion, other inmates who were allowed to partake in recreational facilities, (more common were brothels, actually), but the Nazis had a complicated hierarchy of prisoners, and the Jews were pretty much at the bottom of it. Remember, concentration camps of all sorts tended to have relatively few numbers of SS actually running the place, they subcontracted a lot of the oppression to more favored inmates.

> And where do people get the argument from that the majority of Jews that died during the Holocaust died as a result of Typhus?

There was a typhus epidemic in Auschwitz in the summer of 1942 that is pretty well documented. If you say, want to absolve the nazis of mass murder, you claim that the majority of the deaths weren't intentional killing, but just an unfortunate series of typhus epidemics.

For whatever reason, Auschwitz has become THE model of a concentration camp, so a lot of stuff that happened there just becomes the default assumption to how every concentration camp worked.

Well, there were also the records the Nazis themselves took of Jews which were "no longer relevant."

That went up to about 4 million.

It's thought that Nazi allies and Einsattsgruppen killed a significant number of Jews that weren't in formal Nazi documentation.

Wilhelm Hottl testified at the Nuremberg Trials that he'd met with Eichmann and Eichmann had estimated about a 4 million deaths in concentration camps and another 2 million outside them.

You don't go from allegedly 50% Jews to zero that easily. It was a known Jewfort long before any Balkan states.

Edit: Majdanek was one of the 4 Reinhardt camps. I meant to say Chelmno.

Yea but right across the border you have the entire Jewish population (some would argue mysterious twice the Jewish population) in Macedonia after the war.
I've never heard of 4 million being actually accounted for in nazi records. Can you provide sources?

Literally Eichmann himself on fucking audio that auschwitz alone exterminated at least 2 million jews


He also didn't regret a single moment of it, hence his execution

That's a bullshit account. Most sources say it was less than a million and even then it's contested if the camp had the capacity or manpower to do it

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Höfle_Telegram

This telegram was in January of 1943, so it can't cover the last two years of the war.

It mentions 1,200,000 Jews exterminated in 1942.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korherr_Report

This report estimates 2,500,000 killed by the time it was commissioned in mid 1942, but it was relatively conservative.

This isn't documentation, but as I mentioned, Wilhelm Hottl testified that Eichmann had given him a figure of 4 million Jews killed in camps and 2 million killed outside of them.

The numbers sound huge until you realize that the Eastern Front killed like 40 million people, and the Germans routinely practiced civilian reprisals.

...

Soviets seized the bulk of "evidence" of the holocaust. So the numbers of people actually killed in the camps, or by soldiers in the field, is debatable. The Communists had something to gain by exaggerating the scope of Nazi crimes.

>the Wannsee conference never happened: the post

Wait I might be retarded. How does this prove 2.5 million Jews died? This is train tickets

Train tickets to extermination camps.

The Germany government paid the railway companies for the transportation of juden to death camps as part of the ongoing "deportation to the east" excuse.

i'm not denying it happened. Just the 6 gorrilion.

Not him, but if you have train tickets showing people coming in, and nobody is coming out.......

...

>In most wars, you didn't have deliberate extermination of conquered peoples

lol

Like, if there's 10 million Jews in Europe, why would you set out to only kill a few hundred thousand?

I think Hitler would be really pissed if you told him that modern day Nazis were trying to shortchange him. Getting everything Judenfrei was one of his life's biggest ambitions, and it seems like he got most of the ones in between the English Channel and the Urals.

Wait wait wait, this is what the whole thread is about. How do we prove they all died? Or that they were transported specifically a death camp?

hitler was a zionist and supported a two state solution.

he didn't want to kill them, from the get go. he just wanted to get them the hell out of Europe.

Well, the telegram was referring specifically to Jews transported to extermination camps.

There was a lot of corroborating testimony from the SS men that ran the camps, as to the fact that they operated like life sized roach motels.

Assuming it was indeed a death camp to kill specifically jews

Witness accounts, censuses, German reports.

>If at the beginning of the war and during the war twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the people had been held under poison gas, as happened to hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers in the field, the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain

Hitler, in Mein Kamphy Chair

>Today I want to be a prophet once more: if international Jewry succeeds in plunging the nations into another world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth, and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the destruction of the Jewish race in Europe!

Hitler, in a speech to the Reichstag, January 30th 1939

>None of the Führer's prophetic words has come so inevitably true as his prediction that if Jewry succeeded in provoking a second world war, the result would be not the destruction of the Aryan race, but rather the wiping out of the Jewish race. This process is of vast importance, and will have unforeseeable consequences that will require time. But it can no longer be halted. It must only be guided in the right direction

Goebbels, The War and the Jews, 1943

I think he'd be pretty pissed, honestly. He wipes out half of the entire global Jewish population and people don't even have the common decency to remember the one campaign promise he was able to get done.

Well, there were people other than Jews in death camps.

That telegram only references Jews, because the Germans didn't really bother to keep good records with other subject peoples they killed. Like, a lot of people got killed, but the Final Solution and Action T4 were the only really systematic extermination campaigns.

With other groups of people, it was more of a "throw them in with the Jews" policy of convenience.

Yeah cause pulling them out of the worst economic depression the world has ever seen was definitely not part of his promises. They were just dumb by going all racial too soon. They could have had a great empire still standing.

Well, the end of the Depression in Germany was supposed to be permanent, not temporary.

Instead you get good German fraulein sucking Yankee dick for cigarettes, while everyone tries to figure out how to survive food rationing.

He promised different things different groups. Normal civilians didn't really care about the Jewish question that much. In Triumph of the Will they aren't even mentioned.

>Witness accounts
Hoo boy, you just opened up a can of worms.

>Hitler actually pulled ANYONE out of a depression

You realize that in every area that wasn't defense, there was a shortage of goods and technicians?

Hell, there was a famine in some parts of Germany because of that retard.

>guy claims to have been issued a secret ray gun in WW2
>WW2 didn't happen

And due to mass industrialization of the country they are once again on the top of the economic ladder. Food rationing was only on the American side cause they had to prove how big their dicks were to the Russians and risked starving thousands to not let the Russians have Berlin. Also though the hate Jews part has been systematically erased from the German mind (mostly) they still remain very Fucking nazi like. Berlin looks more like hitlers love city today than ever before, and they snitch each other out like they get free schnitzel out of it. Not to mention the obsession with being the best, seriously have you ever had German exchange students, more robots than japs (speaking of lower classes mostly here, upper class Germans today are more like Germany in 1893 than 1936

Yes:

imgur.com/a/725A7

Read the whole thing and realize how retarded you once were.

>guy claims to have been issued a secret ray gun in WW2
>no evidence of a ray gun
>there was no secret ray gun

>guy claims to have been sent to the steam chamber in WW2
>no evidence of a steam chamber
>there was no steam chamber

Remember, the Nuremberg trials legitimately "proved" that jews were manufactured into soap and lampshades, and that a nuke was set off on Rugen.

This is not even funny. And yes, it's a very important source. A lot of these more outrageous stories appeared many years after the war. Some are lies, others came from very old people and aren't exactly reliable.

>"proved"
Are you sure?

Important, yes

Infallible/unexaggerated, no

And that's why we have other sources.

>mfw /pol/tards choose to ignore all the photographs, all the evidence, all the testimonies, all the documents, the documents with "seen by the fuhrer" written on them showing death tolls, all the soldier testimonies, all the cannisters, all the speeches made by hitler, all the speeches made by himmler at posen, all the books, all the primary sources because of an image they saw on an american version of a japanese anime site


LMAO

Lol dude people claimed to have seen Ramses 2 stop 10 million arrows by himself and shoot 50 thousand back at the enemy. The winning side always boasts itself to retardation. my grandpa told me Tito was taller than all the men in the resistance and that he led an entire squadron by himself in Kriva Palanka. Tito was never in Palanka and there was no battle there. And Tito was deff not taller than the average. Seriously, look up mass hallucinations. WW2 is a known time for many inconsistencies, record number of ufo sightings and religious experiences. Also Jews swindle me irl all the time and I'm angry rawr

>Did the Holocaust happen?
Yes. Hardly anyone denies it.

>not trolling, but generally curious as to how we came about the exact number of 6 million Jews killed

Propaganda from late 1800's. Red Cross put the numbers around 100k. The numbers don't really matter though.

> and how this was different from mass killings of almost any war.

It's not. Special Snowflakes argue it matters, it doesnt.

OK, maybe you guys can help. This is where the stormfags always stump me:
>if the jews were rounded up into internment camps where disease was rampant and food was scarce, isn't it cheaper and less labor intensive to let the jews die of starvation or disease than to construct mass-killing artifices in a country where a war is sapping most available resources?
>even if they did decide to kill en-masse, aren't a few dozen bullets cheaper than using large amounts of zyklon B to fill poorly sealed rooms which necessarily would have leaked a great deal to kill the same number of people?
>how did regular-sized crematoriums get retrofitted to burn massive numbers of bodies much faster than modern crematoriums, without being much bigger?
>weren't the supplies necessary to keep crematoriums burning the same supplies that were required for the war effort?

I understand these questions are pretty much designed to trip you up, but I don't know how to counter them effectively. This is only an approximation of the denial arguments that have been made against me directly. I'm not claiming this is their exact argument, but it's as close as I can remember and as honestly representative of their argument as I can make it.

...

Yeah nice try buddy, taking the old compromise stance of "haha sure it happened but the numbers were low"

Kill yourself! It happened get over it

>>if the jews were rounded up into internment camps where disease was rampant and food was scarce, isn't it cheaper and less labor intensive to let the jews die of starvation or disease than to construct mass-killing artifices in a country where a war is sapping most available resources?
This is such a stupid question. There were 3 or more million Jews in Poland alone. The camps didn't have unlimited capacity. And things like epidemics or revolts were likely to happen.

Most of the fatalities were starvation and disease, not gas. Gas was there to fill in the gaps.

Germany was already producing a shitload of Zyklon B as a pesticide, and it enabled them to conduct the killings with glue eating reservists rather than front line soldiers.

Only the largest camps had gas chambers, mass shootings were also a common way to fill in gaps.

Modern crematoriums have a bunch of requirements that slow shit down. If you run them like a garbage incinerator and don't bother with caskets or 100% completion, it isn't a problem.

By the way, bone fragments consistent have been found in fields all around Dachau, and cyanide residue has been found in gas chamber walls.

>after this point, they will immediately call you a Jew

Where do you draw the line between acceptable estimates and non-acceptable estimates? I have heard genuine academic estimates as low as 2 million. Would you admit that this is a possible figure, or should that academic have killed themselves as well? I have heard estimates as high as 16 million. Should we adopt them because they are higher?

6 million is a pretty lazy estimate that hasn't taken in to account numerous revisions of our understanding of the death counts at Auschwitz, Dachau, etc. It could be that the proper estimate is 5.4 million or 7 million or something, but there is no reason to be married to 6 million.

The general consensus is that 5-6 million Jews died during the Holocaust.

Nice try, but the Wannsee Conference laid out the numbers pretty obviously.

Bonus points: Explain why the British House of Commons came up with a figure of 5 million or more when they were fighting a war against Zionists in the Palestinian mandate and had every possible incentive to downplay the violence against Jews in Europe.

>It happened get over it
We're not the ones who can't "get over it". Jews are never gonna stop demanding free shit and gibsmuhdats because of the "six million", it's too profitable for them.

>>if the jews were rounded up into internment camps where disease was rampant and food was scarce, isn't it cheaper and less labor intensive to let the jews die of starvation or disease than to construct mass-killing artifices in a country where a war is sapping most available resources?

They were made to work in those camps, why would you kill of labour? Those places were already constructed for the purpose of manual labour, adding ovens and gas chambers is not difficult. You must remember that Hitler had a deep seated hatred for Jews as did the rest of the Nazi party. You really should read Mein Kampf and listen to Himmler's speeches if you don't already realise that their hatred was pathological one. They wanted to get rid of them no matter what.

You are also forgetting that many of those put into ovens burned quickly as they were CHILDREN, something neo-nazis always forget to mention, also, that under mass starvation they would be quicker to cremate.

>even if they did decide to kill en-masse, aren't a few dozen bullets cheaper than using large amounts of zyklon B to fill poorly sealed rooms which necessarily would have leaked a great deal to kill the same number of people?

This fucking question literally aids the first one. Zyklon B is a pesticide and kills off flea and rat borne diseases. It was also used as it was suggested by Rudolf Hess I believe. It also would have provided a nice way to kill people without noise and mess, not to worry other prisoners.

>how did regular-sized crematoriums get retrofitted to burn massive numbers of bodies much faster than modern crematoriums, without being much bigger?

What I said in the beginning, CHILDREN and STARVED BODIES BURN QUICKER.

>weren't the supplies necessary to keep crematoriums burning the same supplies that were required for the war effort?

I don't understand this question. If you are implying they should have just had mass burials then you are crazy.

CONT.

By fucking who? Most historians who look at it disagree about numbers. The rest of the people don't question it cause mehtragedy, and as somebody pointed out earlier it's a well known fact that Soviets and the allies took many of the records from the camps and twisted information to their own benefit i.e. Israel is beneficial as fuck to allies and the Bolshevization of Germany was beneficial to the Soviets.

>post "holocaust" anywhere on Veeky Forums
>autists immediately JIDF that shit to death with stormfront infographics and David Irving

You have to go back.

Because they also had every incentive to play it up, a pack of second rate Zionist terrorists they could have stomped anytime, and besides they didn't want groups like Lehi joining forces with the Nazis.

Explain why the Bletchley Park intercepts did not show anything inconsistent with the reports of >300,000 casualties.

CONT.

They knew they would lose in the final days and even before that, they knew what they were doing was a monstrous war crime and wanted to hide it from the allies in any way they possibly could. You really should listen to Himmler's Posen speeches, he explicitly states at one point that what he said to his fellow officers must never the room.

Why do you think they all committed suicide? Goering, Hess, Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels?

Just look at this list:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicides_in_Nazi_Germany

nytimes.com/1989/11/12/weekinreview/ideas-trends-auschwitz-revisionism-an-israeli-scholar-s-case.html
There is dispute about that.

A common figure is in fact 4 million Jews total, and it is certainly not holocaust denial to suggest less than 6 million.

Obviously his figure of 100,000 is ridiculous and lacks source, but my point is that the total number is actually not well known. There is a consensus, but it is more for political expediency than historical accuracy.

None of this disproves, weakens, or attacks the holocaust narrative of racial genocide.

>did not show anything inconsistent with the reports of >300,000 casualties

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Höfle_Telegram

YOU go back.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen, retard.

Cognitive dissonance? No one is saying you can't criticise Jews, just that you can't pretend something didn't happen to fit your own ideological narrative.

>most historians
Most historians agree with these numbers. Holocaust deniers aren't 'most historians', in fact a lot of them aren't historians at all.

Oh sweet, you called me Reddit.

I haven't heard that one before.

This is not a common figure. And 1989 article? Really?

No nigger go to the history section of Barnes and noble, every book has a different estimation. Most historians argue like shit over what color Luis the 5ths shoes were. Don't pretend like you've ever wine and dined with these people, they take accuracy on a crazy level. Go to any historical society and find two or three people who are well versed on the subject and ask them to discuss the subject, they always fight. No one agrees with it. And denying the numbers is not denying the holocaust. Get over yourself

"A cryptic one page document discovered in 2000."
That just mentions the Jews who arrived at camps, not that they died. And even then they had to fudge and add an extra "5" to make their data match the hypothesis.

youtube.com/watch?v=UOjyq2CwcdI

But it's still roughly 5-6 million.

>make accusation of stormfront
>get called reddit
go cry into your blubber about it

>conveniently ignores what extermination camps are

MUH BABBY GERMANY DINDU NUFFIN

JUST NEED MO MONEY FO DEM POGROMS

David Irving himself admitted that the Eichmann documents are genuine.

How come /pol/tards don't even listen to the people they praise?

David Irving also redacted his number claims about Dresden.

>And even then they had to fudge and add an extra "5" to make their data match the hypothesis
Damn, stormfags are really fucking dumb.

>David Irving also redacted his number claims about Dresden.

Really? When was this? I had to read a copy of The Destruction of Dresden ages ago, and I had never heard of a retraction of his 135,000 or so claim.

It was soon after he first made it public, it was a lot higher than the 135,000 number and he admitted he fucked up.

He has stopped out right denying gassings as of recent but still claims no gassings happened at Auschwitz and they all took place in the Reinhardt camps.

So wait, just to be clear, his initial guess was even higher and then he redacted it down to 135k?

Because that 135k is still quite ridiculous.

A document was discovered written up at the time by the city authorities including a hand-written version.

The 250,000 claim he originally made was on the basis of a claim made by an officer I believe and around Goebbels propaganda forged documents which literally added a 0 at the end of 25,000 which is the actual death toll.

He continually changed the figure in later works, reducing them incrementally, from 250,000 to 135,000 to 100,000 to 50,000.


Here is a 2010 German city council report on the bombing:

dresden.de/media/pdf/infoblaetter/Historikerkommission_Dresden1945_Abschlussbericht_V1_14a.pdf

depends which edition you read, it's dropped significantly multiple times over the years. He originally had it at as high as over 200,000 but as time goes on he drops it as more info comes out.

It's MUCH lower now.

That's the problem with history. Unless you're up to date with the latest information, you can be wrong about many things, documents are being discovered all the time.

Well, 135k is not only not really documented, it's ridiculous.

I've never heard of anyone disputing the death toll of Operation Gomorrah, and that's about half of the 135 claim; despite more tonnage being dropped on a denser and larger population in better weather. To get to that high of a death toll, you'd need to posit that the British bombers were amazingly more deadly in this particular raid than they were in any raid before or since, even the other ones that caused firestorms.

Exactly, that's why it's crazy.

I don't know the full details of the level of historic/public knowledge of the bombing at the time but the book was initially published in 1963 so ignorance may have had a key part in allowing this huge figure to ferment. Even Vonnegut used the figure of 135,000 in his book and he was there! lol

>Yea but right across the border you have the entire Jewish population (some would argue mysterious twice the Jewish population) in Macedonia after the war.
Where?

Oh and there's no Macedonia bordering Macedonia, that would be absurd :^)

Ok dude seriously Ive been on the chans since.2007. This is my first post on Veeky Forums although ive been lurking for over a.year. if you truly.have that folder you are the hero we need.

You,sir.have earned yourself over 9000 internets.

Inb4 totally.not an old fag
Inb4 brushy brushy wasnt funny

Insulting German guy made a beautiful series.

If this thread hasn't been nuked by tomorrow, I'll post the other 4.

Please upload all the files to megaupload or something.

This is not self explaining, even when speaking German. it's a bi-weekly report and says something about arrivals. What are the letters L, B, S and T mean before the numbers?

every war in the latter 3/4ths of the 20th century was industrial in character

eastern front, report#51 Dec 29th 1942: executions August - November 42

Russia ... since December 1941 97.000 were "handled" (with 3 mobile gas trucks) ... some technical improvements for the future ...

These are doctored images