Was the ethnic clensing of the Prussians a genocide?

The Soviets destroyed us. The smart ones left for the American lines.

The GERMans got what was coming to them. A shame that GERMan "nation" didn't get fully wiped out after WWII

It's not a genocide if it's justified.

That's an interesting form of genocide where the targeted population just keeps growing normally

Cultural assimilation through forceful measures is considered as a form of genocide, because it aims to destroy another group's identity, especially if it's enhanced up by deportations from key regions.

So Serbs genocided Macedonians, too, I guess?

The Prussian deportations affected only foreign citizens and the number of expelled persons was too small to change the ethnic makeup of any region.

Oh pls OP, not this meme again. Sure, we germans lost a huge chunk of land after both world wars but we basicly started both. Start shit get hit.

No, they've affected the Polish, who're native to the lands from which they were deported from.

> and the number of expelled persons was too small to change the ethnic makeup of any region

Certainly not, it was so widespread and alarming that it even forced Russians to openly act against it.

The Prussian deportations (or Prussian expulsions, Polish: rugi pruskie) were mass expulsions of ethnic Poles (and, to a lesser extent, Jews) from Prussia in between 1885–1890. More than 30,000 Poles with Austrian or Russian citizenship were deported from the Prussian part of divided Poland to the respective Austrian and Russian parts. The deportations were carried out in an inhumane way, and were based on ethnic discrimination principles. The county-wide expulsion was condemned by the Polish public as well as the federal German parliament. The expulsion also contributed to the worsening of the German-Russian relations. In the aftermath, Poles without German citizenship were again allowed to work and reside in the German Empire in all seasons but the winter. It is regarded as an early example of ethnic cleansing.

Agriculture in the eastern provinces of Prussia was to a high degree based on large-area manors (often requisitioned from their formerly Polish owners) and run by German junkers, who employed thousands of migrating Poles from the Russian and Austrian part of partitioned Poland. Also, the growing industrial region of Upper Silesia attracted workers from economically backward areas. At the same time, parts of the local German and Polish population migrated in search of work to more industrialized western areas of Germany (Ostflucht). Although no anti-German political activity among the Polish migrants was ever noted, the resulting increase of the Polish population alarmed nationalist German circles, including Germany's chancellor Otto von Bismarck. (1/2).

(2/2).On 26 March 1885, the ministry of internal affairs of Prussia ordered its provincial authorities to expel abroad all ethnic Poles and Jews holding Russian citizenship. In July 1885, the expulsion order was extended to include Polish Austrian citizens also. Additionally, the authorities were obliged to watch, that in the future no "undesirable foreigners" would settle on those territories.

The order was executed upon all non-Prussian citizens regardless of their long term residence or previous service in the Prussian Army, and despite their state of health, age or sex. The expellees were "driven in mass towards the eastern border under blows of gendarmes' rifle butts". Fatal incidents were being reported, as the expulsions were carried in winter time. In the initial months nearly 26,000 persons were expelled from eastern provinces of Prussia, mainly workers and craftsmen employed there. The expulsions were continued in subsequent years. Until 1890 the number of expellees exceeded 30,000,and the border of Prussia was closed to all migrants of Polish ethnicity.The formerly good relations between Germany and Russia worsened in the 1880’s due to growing nationalist trends in Russian politics. German minorities in the Russian Empire, including Baltic and Russian-born Germans as well as recent German immigrants, faced negative sentiments among both the government and the public supporting the ideas of Pan-Slavism. With that in mind, the German ambassador in Russia, Schweinitz, advised Bismarck to abstain from further expulsions, anticipating that they would only provoke the supporters of Pan-Slavism and trigger repressions against all German settlers in Russia.

And, The expulsions had been met with disapproval inside the government circles of Russia. Dmitry Tolstoy, a conservative, and the minister of internal affairs who tried to procure a plausible reception for those events in Russia, acknowledged Otto von Bismarck's Anti-Polish sentiment and unofficially gave ambassador Schweinitz his advice that Bismarck had committed a grave mistake, as such extreme measures were unnecessary. Also Nikolay Giers, the minister of foreign affairs of Russia, stated that Bismarck – by his own conduct – had aggravated already hostile feelings existing towards German colonists in Russia, had set a bad example to be followed, and had spread the seeds of new ethnic antagonisms in the future. Bismarck himself expressed to ambassador Schweinitz his disappointment, stating that "the Russians showed less satisfaction because of our expulsions than I had expected". Soon afterward, the Russian government imposed legal restrictions on acquisition and lease of land by Germans in Russia, thus limiting the German colonisation movement in the Russian-controlled part of Poland.
Contrary to Bismarck's original intentions, the expulsion contributed to the worsening of German-Russian relations and the erosion of their long term cooperation – resulting in a shift in Russia's external policy which finally led to the creation of the Franco-Russian Alliance soon transformed into Triple Entente, which fought the German Empire during World War I in 1914–1918.”

>It's not a genocide if it's justified.

Any group could make that case.

Yes, but the Germans sort of opened that can of worms with the shit they pulled.

E D G Y
D
G
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If I petition the UN to remember what happened to the Prussians as genocide do you think they'd do it? Or would politics get in the way?

germans """""people"""""

>implying immorality is a weakness
Fuck pacifists.

I doubt they would do it.
A lot of people think that Germany deserved it and I think many would view it as trying to downplay German atrocities in the East.

>I doubt they would do it.
A lot of people think that Germany deserved it and I think many would view it as trying to downplay German atrocities in the East.

If it fits the definition of genocide I don't think they'd have a choice. Once you make an exception for something like this you open a can of worms you can't put back.

>Slovaks existing in the 9th century
Yup and I'm sure USA was a thing in Jesus' times.

No, that's what the Teutonic Order did, so German crimes go further back into the past than just the 19th century

>What's your point? You know someone lived there before the Slavs arrived. What happened to them?
Except this land was always slavic, despite german XIX century bullshit.

>ethnic cleansing of the Prussians

Yes, OP, I agree the Germans did terrible things to the people they conquered.
You will never hear this again:

youtube.com/watch?v=QriD_y92S4o

youtube.com/watch?v=dppCZDU7Zjg

>The Allied powers deliberately destroyed Prussian identity and abolished the Prussian State.
this is not genocide, the way you've written it

a state is just a state, so is an identity - they change all the time throughout history

besides those germans were just deported or moved westward

It was ethnic cleansing.

Genocide would have to involve an emphasis on reducing the numbers of the population, not just removing them from their property.

They were shit to prussians no doubt but whole baltic stands thanks to them. Without teutons Russians would have captured and russified baltics just like they did with finnougrics and other siberian tribes.

>Implying other Europeans were any different
The Germans/Prussians just had better equipment.

>would politics get in the way?
It did the first time they tried in the 1950s.

>Old Prussian dialect
It's not German, what the fuck.

Sounds ugly, to be honest.

>It's not German, what the fuck.
Good job, you discovered that Germans stole Prussian identity

Nothing wrong with white genocide. They've been doing it to us for centuries.

Ethnic cleansing, not a genocide.

They were just (maybe bit roughly) roundep up and sent back to German rightful ethnic historical lands.

The Teutons dominated then absorbed a weak and compliant people. So ist das Leben.

timestamp of your basketball-playing crack-dealing hands or get out.

Many fled west in the last months of the war, as they weren't oblivious to what was going to happen. Many more (i.e. really poorfags and communist sympathizers who didn't mind the Red Army), or those who just plain couldn't get out, were left behind. Many were later kicked out, along with Jews.

>Implying that back when Teutons existed, Grand Duchy of Lithuania wasn't much stronger than rising Muscovy

>timestamp of your basketball-playing crack-dealing hands or get out.
he's a shill undercover

Germs should be happy with the way it came out because they deserved MUCH MORE for their atrocities commited on humanity

Anyone can say that. Genocide is genocide.

Only that the expulsion of Germans wasn't a genocide. You may say it was a deliberate ethnic cleansing (even thought that's debatable) but not genocide. Germans weren't deliberately killed, they survived and lived in Western Germany.

check definition of "genocide" dumbtard

In that cause, they shouldn't complain when the same happens to them.

> abolished the Prussian State
That was Bismark doing when he destroyed all of the other german states too.

Prussia was still a thing, being a state of German Empire, Weimar Republic and Third Reich, having separate government and parament, until allies officially ended it in 1947. Still, I don't think there was some Prussian identity left by that time, Kaisers and Hitler spent a lot of time building unified German nation. So, no nation - no genocide.

Yes.

It was at best forced expulsion of the native peoples.

That's not what happened though in the case of post-war expulsions.

>I don't think there was some Prussian identity left by that time,
You are obviously not German if you say that.

>native

Germans weren't natives there.

If a people live in a place long enough, at least 4 generations or so, it's fair to call them native.

So, Poles and Russians are natives to East Prussia after over 70 years of settlement.

...

Im serious. There are people approaching adulthood right now whose grand grandparents settled in former Prussia.

it is genocide according to the UN definition.

Same goes for Israel/Palestine, which is exactly what Zionists are waiting for. "Hurr West Bank is home to native Jews since XXXX!"

Or more traditional settler societies too (USA, Canada, NZ, Australia, South Africa, etc). It doesn't make the history any 'cleaner' or happier, but that's how shit works. You cannot blame someone for the sins (or whatever else) of the father. You may be able to respond to inequalities and lingering injustice, but that's another question.

It is simply stupid to say "HUURRRR IT'S PURE SLAV NATIVE LAND SINCE 6 GORILIAN YEARZ!!". Slavs are Indo-Europeans and not the first humans to show up in the area.

For Kaliningrad, Soviets forcibly settled people there. Not too different for Poland, except more favouritism was involved with 'redistributing' the land.

I'm not German, Slav or an irredentist, so in the end I don't really care. The question is whether the post-war expulsions were ethnic cleansing, and they were. Prussian-Germans were natives to the land. These were not ethnically homogenous places -- the population was always pockets of this and that.

>. Prussian-Germans were natives to the land.

They weren't, you idiot. The kingdom of Prussia grew on originally Slavic and Baltic lands obtained through conquest. The original inhabitants were often killed or expelled or treated worse than dirt until they got assimilated.

>You cannot blame someone for the sins (or whatever else) of the father.
Good then that the expulsed (not the same as ethnically cleansed) Germans were removed from Prussia right after World War II, and not a generation later.

It's not settling, it's re-settling.The Germans have driven out the Poles from Western and parts of Northern Poland, the Poles and Soviets have done the same to them.

It certainly was, they were defeated and weak, thus forced out.

> Slavs are Indo-Europeans and not the first humans to show up in the area.
True, but they're the ones who've cultivated the land and largely transformed it into what it is today, not the Germanics.

Did you even follow the posts I was replying to (which were replies to my own)? Obviously not, you idiot. German-Prussians were living there for hundreds of years, that's native. Unless you're being a sperglord about Urheimat, which you have probably never heard of until right now. And even if that is what you're referring to, it doesn't really change anything.

The Slavs and Balts got BTFO and conquered several hundred years prior. They were subjugated and over time, many of them absorbed into the new Germanic kingdom. A similar story has been told 10,000 times in human history.

>treated worse than dirt
Sounds like they got what they deserved. Do you think Slavs and Balts treated their neighbours any better in the 13th century?

Yea, because peasant women and children were all Nazi members... The whole point is that collective punishment is asinine.

>Prussians
>Germans

>A similar story has been told 10,000 times in human history.
topkek
germs and their sympathizers never learn from history
they're so dumb they're cursed to repeat the same story 10,000 times and more

>True, but they're the ones who've cultivated the land and largely transformed it into what it is today, not the Germanics.
Moving the goalposts. But so what? Germanic Prussians had been living there for several hundred years. That's long enough.

By your same logic, White (and Indian) South Africans have no political claims whatsoever in SA. No one but 'Native American Indians' has any legitimate political claims in North America. And so on. See how absurd this game gets?

You really are fucking dense.

You are now picturing T-34's running over and crushing columns of prussian refugees on their way to berlin.
These fucking faggots got exactly what they deserved.

>Yea, because peasant women and children were all Nazi members... The whole point is that collective punishment is asinine.
So, you think that only men should be expulsed, while women should marry Poles and Russians, and the German children should be Polonized/Russified?

Not at all, because they've gained those lands during the Partitions of Poland, events that were largely illegal and further criminalized by systematic mistreatment of it's native population, the Poles.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_deportations
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_Poles_during_the_Partitions
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Partition_of_Poland
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_the_Polish_nation
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_occupied_Poland_during_World_War_II
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligenzaktion

>See how absurd this game gets
A pathetic attempt of making it sound absurd by comparing it to something that is largely incomparable won't work here, I hope you're aware of it.

>But so what?
The Poles have granted the defeated Teutonic Order amnesty in return for loyalty, while they've could've easily wiped them out and assimilate the non-combatants, they've respected their customs and language within the borders of the Polish-Lithuanian Union and later on, in the Commonwealth as well, but the Prussians, after they've teamed up with the Austrians and Russians have done just the opposite, they've forcefully relocated the Poles from the lands they've gained during the Partitions, they've confiscated their property, they've also closed down their public schools and have treated them like subhumans in their own land for nearly 200 years.Then, the Poles have regained their independence and the Germans, who've known that the Poles might seek justice against them, have abandoned Poland in droves.However, in World War II, they saw a chance to "reclaim" land which was never theirs to begin with, they've participated in a plethora of gruesome war crimes committed in Nazi-occupied Poland and once again, the Poles decide to show them mercy and merely relocate them to Germany, on the immediate protest of the Soviets.

>The Slavs and Balts
Only the Balts were displaced by the Teutonic Order, Prussia was their domain after all.

> A similar story has been told 10,000 times in human history
And you only seem to regard it as a tragedy when it happens to Germans, rather hypocritical.

>Do you think Slavs and Balts treated their neighbors any better in the 13th century
They certainly have, because the largest and best known Slavic civilization were always known for it's tendency towards peaceful coexistence and respect towards the different, hence the likes of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Russian Empire.

>Sounds like they got what they deserved
Because they've decided to defend their traditions, families and people from a foreign occupant?

Your arguments both hypocritical and inconsistent, are you American by any chance?

...

>start a total war
>lose
>still exist.
For less, many country had be "wipe".

>g*rmans
>human

Yes, that's exactly what I think...
>pepe.jpg

>tl;dr
Cry me a river. Teuton domination was as fair as fair goes under laws at the time.

>which was never theirs to begin with
Stupid empty argument. Then it was never 'Polish' land either, fool.

>the immediate protest of the Soviets.
lel. Keep drinking that barszcz-flavoured kool-aid, Piotr.

>And you only seem to regard it as a tragedy when it happens to Germans, rather hypocritical.
Not at all. I'm neither Slav, German or irredentist, like I said. I'm calling a spade a spade. German/Prussian domination took place over several centuries. The post-WW2 expelled ethnic Germans were largely poorfags who couldn't afford to get out sooner. Do you think most Junker gentry were just twiddling their thumbs waiting for the mongol hordes and Polish/commie partisans to show up? Ethnic cleansing is not justified because of some notions of 'muh feels' collective punishment. Period.

And no I'm not American.