Are finno-ugrics asian or european? I never understand it

Holy shit you niggers are dumb.

Finno-Ugric is a branch of the Uralic language family. The other main branch of the family is Samoyedic, which includes languages like Selkup and Nenets.

The time depth of Proto-Uralic is probably between 5 and 6 kya, It would have been spoken in southwest Siberia.

As to whether they were "Asian" or "European", Proto-Uralic speakers would have looked something like pic related--i.e. indigenous Siberian. Of course that means nothing to you idiots because you can't think outside your nonexistent racial boxes.

Nganansan and all other Samoyeds are language shifters. They have different haplogroups than other Uralics.

...

Woah...Swedish average went up a centimeter since the refugee crisis started.

If they geographically are located west of the Ural Mountains they are European. If they are east of the Urals they are Asian.

The language family to me seems more accurate (historically) to say it lies more on the Asian side of the spectrum.

>nonexistent racial boxes

literally any forensic scientist would tell you how wrong you are.

furthermore there's literally no evidence they were Mongoloid.

>Proto-Uralic speakers would have looked something like pic related--i.e. indigenous Siberia
Proofs?

Holy fuck, you guys are retarded. Finno-Ugric languages are majority European and thus a predominately European language family. Let's count and see:

Mordvin -European

Mari - European

Udmurt - European

Komi - Asiatic

Khanty - Asiatic

Mansi - Asiatic

Veps - European

Karelian - European

Estonian - European

Hungarian - European

Livonian - European

Sami - Asiatic

Ingrian - European

So 9 out of 13 languages that are European make Finno-Ugric mainly a European language family. Anyways Finno-Ugric speakers were the inhabitants of most of northern and eastern Europe before Indo-European speakers. Proto-Indo-Europeans are technically asiatic too.

>Proto-Indo-Europeans are technically asiatic too.
rude af

Are we Africans or Indians?

no

Shit like this is why I'll never take /pol/ seriously when they talk about who is and isn't "white." They have no real consensus on it and they just raise boundaries to support whatever point they need to at the time. Finns have a very slight lean towards asians, but you'd have to be retarded as hell to try and conflate that as meaning they aren't European. They're so much closer to other Europeans than any other Asian group, it's not even funny. People really need to stop acting like Europeans aren't some of the most genetically homogeneous people on the planet.

Bosnia and Poland, brothers in length.

In a sense they, they've migrated from the East.

>European an note worthy category befor/outside the European union
What does it matter if they're European or Asian or African for any non /pol/tard?

Are indo-europeans asian or european? I never undestand it

The homeland(Yamna) stretched into the western tip of Kazakhstan where it clashed with the Botai culture. Western Kazakhstan can be considered either European or Asian.

Your autism keeps you up at night because you can't neatly categorize people of a country you've never been to, to a overly simplified group you probably understand wrong.

Finns are different stock from other europeans, but outside the odd guy with likely sami-heritage having euphenic folds and somewhat less muslims you might as well be walking among swedes. Whole finns = mongols meme has it's origins in swedish race doctors paving way to /pol/ back in the olden days

Most Finns nowadays like and participate in the Mongol meme. It's pretty funny.

Hitler did borrow some of his racial theory from Swedish (and partly American) Nordicists. Which is sort of funny how the ideal German is supposed to look like a farmer from Sweden while the whole Nazi party leadership is swarthy.

I'm not sure epicantic folds have anything to do with the Sami either. They seem to exist in some Europeans outside Fenno-Scandinavia as well. Like that bloke who played the skinhead in this is England and SS-Obergruppenführer Reynhard Heydrich.

>I'm not sure epicantic folds have anything to do with the Sami either
I'm a Finn and have never seen a Sami with epicantic folds. Wikipedia says they do, but as per usual with wikipedia the source for it is extremely dubious

Really? I don't know much about these folds, but I certainly see gookish people walking around

>never seen a Sami
sorry, misread

How the hell is sami not a European language?

finns have notably straighter and thinner hair compared to germanics though

this

they were Liao before it was cool

in recent genetic analysis of ancient human bones excavated from the remains of Liao civilization, haplogroup N1 (Y-DNA) is found with a high frequency of 71%, including old paragroups of N1.[27] So, a new possibility arises that the Urheimat of Uralic languages (and perhaps also Yukaghir languages) may be Liao river region. The oldest Pit–Comb Ceramic, related to Finno-Ugric peoples, is also found in Liao civilization

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumpolar_peoples

The Kelteminar people practised a mobile hunting, gathering and fishing subsistence system.
The Kelteminar people lived in huge houses (size 24m x 17m and height 10m), which housed the whole tribal community of about 100-120 people.
The Kelteminar economy was based on sedentary fishing and hunting.

Scientists hold that Kelteminar culture is related to the Pit–Comb Ware culture and belongs to the Finno-Ugric peoples.
The Kelteminar culture was replaced by the IE Tazabagyab culture

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelteminar_culture

>has it's origins in swedish race doctors paving way to /pol/ back in the olden days
It actually has its origins in 19th century finnish nationalism, at which point some finnish intellectuals decided that "nuh-uh, we're not european! We're mongols!". Same thing happened in Hungary.

the following are just some of northern mongoloid groups that share the ancient paleo lifestyle of herding reindeer, shamanism, and hunting :

evenks -tungus

yakuts, soyot, tuvans, dolgans -turks

buryat -mongols

samoyed, evenki, nenets, khanty, sami, mansi -uralic

chuvan, khodynts -yukagir

chukchi, koryak - chukotko-kamchatkan

ket, yugh - yeniseian

nivkh

inuit, yupik -aleut-eskimo

the list is not comprehensive

>these groups form a direct cultural and phenotypic continuity

horry shit!

A genetic analysis dating back to 6500 to 2700 B.C. in the Liao area in China, Haplogroup N (Y-DNA) (frequently in Uralic peoples and Yakuts) was observed at approximately 70% frequency.[4] People of Liao civilization are related to Uralic and Yakut people.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liao_civilization

>Pit–Comb Ware
>Finno-Ugric

Those were some Paleo-Europeans.

Off with your outdated pseudo science, you base all your opinion solely based on haplogroups while you should know haplogroups aren't tied to ethnicities.

Modern datings for Finno-Ugric expansion now only place them 2000BC from Koma region in Russia. Earliest loanwords in Uralic are already from Proto-Indo-Iranian branch which shows Uralic is younger and Koma region vicinity is north of postulated PIE homeland.

name even one.

>>>/leftypol/

>being this inbred

This type of pottery developed in northern woodland of the Eurasia, and widely distributed to Baltic, Finland, the Volga upstream flow, south Siberia, Lake Baikal, Mongolian Plateau, Liaodong Peninsula and Korean Peninsula. The oldest ones have been discovered from the remains of Liao civilization - xinglongwa culture (BC 6200 - 5400 BC) -.[1] It appears in 4200 BC in Finland and 4000 BC in the Korean Peninsula, so the Urheimat is assumed to be Liao region and spread afterward to North Europe through Siberia and to Korean peniusla. This is possibly related to Uralic migration and spread of haplogroup N (Y-DNA).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit–Comb_Ware
Chromosome analysis of prehistoric human populations in the West Liao River Valley, Northeast China.
biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/13/216

i really like this image, save us pekka. T.swede

Haplogroup N is quite old. There's no question that yes it did originate in China but it's unknown when exactly it arrived across the Urals. The plausible window is between 4000 BC and 10000 BC so yes it does make it possible that there's a direct connection to Liao.

Please don't try to explain subjects you don't understand the slightest. Pit-Comb Ware/Comb Ceramic was a cultural network that spread more advanced ideas(pottery, cultural practices) from East Asia via Siberia to a part of Europe that was relatively backwards.

>being this retarded

Okay Finns existed 120000BC.

elisanet.fi/alkupera/UralicEvidence.pdf

sgr.fi/sust/sust266/sust266_parpola.pdf

Again stop with your shitty pseudoscience. Not all N1 is Uralic, and you can be sure as hell whoever those were people in 6000BC they didn't spoke Uralic languages.

elisanet.fi/alkupera/N1c.pdf

Page 10, read it.

b-but Finns are notoriously inbred, they've had one of the biggest population bottlenecks in recorded history. It's not too far fetched.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_heritage_disease

>www.elisanet.fi
>www.sgr.fi
>.fi
into the trash

Not to forget that high percentage of N in Finland is due to bottleneck effect and so is this "disease".

ahhh i c
so now you aint down w/ Liao?

> Okay Finns existed 120000BC.

Uralic is a concept that refers to a group of extant languages which have a common ancestor 5000 or so years ago.
We can safely assume that there were languages related to ancestral Uralic which went extinct.
We will probably never know if these were spoken in parts of Europe not adjacent to the Urals but there's nothing unreasonable about the idea that at least parts of Pit-Comb Ware were Para-Uralic.

And oldest remain found 7500 YBP with tested haplogroup in Karelia was R1a though his clade of R1a doesn't have any modern descendants or if it does it's very minor. So as I said basing who those people were based of haplogroups is pure autism. Because 5000 years ago such ethnicities didn't exist.

He predated Pit-Comb Ware by centuries and a sample size so low from such a small area means nothing.
I'm not claiming anything unlike the other user just pointing out that it's perfectly possible that Pit-Comb Ware was Para-Uralic.

>We can safely assume

And that's where word safely comes into play, according to modern datings of Proto-Uralic 2000BC or even 3000BC if being generous, and it's homeland placed east of that culture it's a bit tricky to say they were related. No one fucking knows what languages where there being in central/western europe either prior Indo-European arrival, but no one jumps into conclusions that they are linguistically related. Though in Uralic and Indo-European variants this might hold true to some extent assuming those people weren't completely wiped out and assimilated and left minimal traces.

Pit-Comb Ware is too old for it to be Uralic or related being directly related.

My mistake Pit-Comb Ware appears even older it appeared 4200BC.

Also what linguistics show is that wherever Proto-Uralic homeland was it was not far from PIE homeland and earliest loanwords are already from late stage Proto-Indo-Europan and Proto-Indo-Aryan branches. So in no way it can be as old as lets say 4000BC.

But no one is arguing that Proto-Uralic is that old?
The concept is only meaningful as it's the ancestor of the extant languages descended from it. Otherwise it's irrelevant for hypothetical discussions about it's long extinct relatives.

>The concept is only meaningful as it's the ancestor of the extant languages descended from it.

So it's irrelevant as there is no strong evidence assuming Pit-Comb-Ware was or para-Uralic or related to it. Because timings are off by at least two millennia and neither does Geographical location of Pit-Comb Ware culture or Proto-Uralic homeland fit as it is not in the vicinity of said culture.

Pit-Comb Ware was the product of cultural transmission from Siberia to NE Europe. There is zero doubt about that. They had an obvious and strong connection to the ancestors of Uralics for that reason.

The question is strictly if the cultural transmission included a language package or if the preceding Paleo-European language(s) persisted.
I don't even have an opinion about it since both seem about equally likely to me.

>They had an obvious and strong connection to the ancestors of Uralics for that reason.

What is that strong connection that you speak of?

Haplogroups? N haplogroup is very diverse and assuming one linguistic group carried it only is a strech. Yakuts for example who speak Turkic language are loaded in N, Finns for example also are loaded in Finns in N but so are Latvians and Lithuanians who surprisingly don't have any Siberian admixture 0%, despite being loaded in N as are Estonians/Finns which show some degree of Siberian admixture. Finno-Ugrics themselves are very diverse going by their looks and ancestry some of them like Mordivins, Erzya are theorized language switchers as those names are assumed to be of Iranian origin and in genetic admixtures they show unusual amount of steppe ancestry associated with Indo-European invasion(Yamnaya).

>The question is strictly if the cultural transmission included a language package

What language are you speaking here off? Unknown language that those people carried or Uralic?

Literally exactly the same thing as Hungarian nationalism, it's literally just "WE WUZ KHANS, FUCK OFF GERMANIC OPPRESSOR"

>posts facts
>leftypol
sasuga /pol/

Pottery with comb markings is what defines Pit-Comb Ware. This has origins in Siberia and derived from the original East Asian pottery.
There's also other cultural links like burials but I can't explain that in detail.

finnish one i meant. i think everybody knows that hungarians wuz huns n' shit.

Does Matthias Castrén sound Hungarian?

Not that I've ever heard of him being anything but a linguist interested in Finnic mythology. I don't think he ever claimed anything even remotely like "we wuz mongolz".

Other user but this guy literally claimed Finns were ancient egyptians

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurd_Wettenhovi-Aspa

>implying we weren't

>they were Liao before it was cool
Finno Ugric urheimat needs to be in the vicinity of proto Indo European.

Anthropologically speaking,the inhabitants of northeastern civilization resembled modern day Tungusics.

>haplogroup N1 (Y-DNA) is found with a high frequency of 71%, including old paragroups of N1
N* M321 not N3 TAT.

N3a L708 a descendant of N3 TAT may be considered pre Uralic.

>the following are just some of northern mongoloid groups that share the ancient paleo lifestyle of herding reindeer, shamanism, and hunting :
This retard again. There's no such thing as a pan paelo lifestyle. Subsistence strategies vary from one group to the next.

FU urheimat is not even close to contemporary with Liao though. It's like saying that Proto-Indo-European had to be close to Basque country because Spanish has a Basque loanword or two.

>FU urheimat is not even close to contemporary with Liao though.
That's my point,Finno Ugric has loanwords from proto Indo European that wouldn't make the Liao a good candidate.

Not to mention the genetic markers don't even match up with what he's claiming.

Early Liao is 6000 BC though. Indo-Europeans weren't even smelling horse farts back then but roaming around on foot as some meaningless little tribe.

Nobody really knows if they originally came from west or east of the Urals. But the spread of haplogroup N (from Siberia to eastern Europe) would suggest the latter.
You sound slightly insecure.

Looks a lot like this goofy fuck.

>Early Liao is 6000 BC though.
I have yet to see linguists suggest that Uralic came from the Liao river basin.

Early Liao(Hongshan) were hunter gatherers who were eventually subsumed by agriculturalists from the south(Lower Xiajiadian).

What's with this dude and his obsession with liao. More like lmao.

Linguists wouldn't be the people to ask anyway since the further back we go the less useful their field is.
DNA studies will show whether there's a genetic relationship between Uralics and Liao or not.

>DNA studies will show whether there's a genetic relationship between Uralics and Liao or not.
Maybe when the Chinese release autosomal dna.

Going from uniparentals the N clades don't match.

can i just say as an australian i fucking love finns

like seriously ha
yous are sickcunts

Thanks bro. I like you too despite your dialect being a bit painful to the ears.

I'm a Swede, and I see epicantic folds on Sami. They're very faint, but that's to be expected after being mixed to hell with us.

Finnish-Australian superpower when?

Fucking Kate Moss and Robert Pattinson have slight epicantic folds.

(hek'd)
less crazy than you may think: consider our positions relative to the south pole

get fucked

It's not about people - its about language.

"Finno-Ugric (/ˌfJnoʊˈjuːɡrJk/ or /ˌfJnoʊˈuːɡrJk/), Finno-Ugrian or Fenno-Ugric is a traditional grouping of all languages in the Uralic language family except the Samoyedic languages. Its commonly accepted status as a subfamily of Uralic is based on criteria formulated in the 19th-century and is often criticized by contemporary linguists. The three most-spoken Uralic languages, Hungarian, Finnish, and Estonian, are all included in Finno-Ugric.

Linguistic roots common to both branches of the traditional Finno-Ugric language tree (Finno-Permic and Ugric) are distant. About 200 words[citation needed] with common roots in all main Finno-Ugric languages have been identified by philologists including 55 about fishing, 15 about reindeer, and three about commerce[citation needed].

The term Finno-Ugric, which originally referred to the entire family, is sometimes used as a synonym for the term Uralic, which includes the Samoyedic languages, as commonly happens when a language family is expanded with further discoveries."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages

That kinda looks like a Pekka to me.

>It's not about people - its about language.

there is no language without people.

unless you are ET.

Yeah, ok.

Here's an example: Hungarian language is Finno-Ugric.
But Hungarian people came from the Urals and picked up many words and other elements of language along the way.

Modern Hungarians are 100% European.
But if you check the "under the hood" structure of Hungarian, Finnish and some Finno-Ugric nomad tribes' (for example Hanti) language, you'll find the same elements.

That's what I'm talking about.
So you can be a Hungarian (European descent) or live in a tribe in Siberia (Asian descent), and still speak a Finno-Ugric language.