Some 3000 years of theism down the drain! <3

>It was, of course, sad to hear that Ms. K had been slowly raped and murdered by a common thug over the course of one hour and fifty-five minutes; but when I found out that the ordeal had taken place in plain sight of twelve fully-armed off-duty police officers, who ignored her terrified cries for help, and instead just watched until the act was carried to its gruesome end, I found myself facing a personal crisis. You see, the officers had all been very close friends of mine, but now I found my trust in them shaken to its core. Fortunately, I was able to talk with them afterwards, and ask them how they could have stood by and done nothing when they could so easily have saved Ms. K.

>"I thought about intervening," said the first officer, "but it occurred to me that it was obviously better for the murderer to be able to exercise his free will than to have it restricted. I deeply regret the choices he made, but that's the price of having a world with free agents. Would you rather everyone in the world were a robot? The attacker's choices certainly weren't in my control, so I can't be held responsible for his actions."

>"Well," said the second officer, "my motivation was a little bit different. I was about to pull my gun on the murderer when I thought to myself, 'But wait, wouldn't this be a perfect opportunity for some unarmed bystander to exercise selfless heroism, should he chance to walk by? If I were to intervene all the time like I was just about to, then no one would ever be able to exercise such a virtue. In fact, everyone would probably become very spoiled and self-centered if I were to prevent every act of rape and murder.' So I backed off. It's unfortunate that no one actually showed up to heroically intervene, but that's the price of having a universe where people can display virtue and maturity. Would you rather the world were nothing but love, peace, and roses?"

>"I didn't even consider stepping in," said the third officer. "I probably would have if I hadn't had so much experience of life as a whole, since Ms. K.'s rape and murder admittedly seems pretty horrible when taken in isolation. But when you put it into context with the rest of life, it actually adds to the overall beauty of the big picture. Ms. K.'s screams were like the discordant notes that make fine musical pieces better than they would have been had all the notes been flawless. In fact, I could scarcely keep from waving my hands around, imagining that I myself was conducting the delicious nuances of the orchestra."

>"When I first arrived on the scene, I actually drew my gun and pointed it right at the rapist's head," confessed the fourth officer, with a very guilty look on his face. "I'm deeply ashamed I did that. Do you know how close I came to destroying all of the goodness in the world? I mean, we all know there can't be any good without evil. Fortunately, I remembered this just in time, and a wave of such strong nausea came over me when I realized what I had almost done, that it knocked me to my hands and knees. Man, was that a close one."

>The attacker's choices certainly weren't in my control, so I can't be held responsible for his actions."

This is perfectly true tho.

>"Look, there's really no point in my trying to explain the details to you," said the fifth officer, who we had nicknamed 'Brainiac' because he had an encyclopedic knowledge of literally everything and an IQ way off the charts. "There's an excellent reason for why I did not intervene, but it's just way too complicated for you to understand, so I'm not even going to bother trying. I mean, you admit you are nowhere near as knowledgeable as I am, so what right do you have to judge? Just so there's no misunderstanding, though, let me point out that no one could care about Ms. K. more than I did, and that I am, in fact, a very good person. That settles that."

>"I would have defended Ms. K.," said the sixth officer, who was notoriously careful about staying out of the public eye, "but it simply was not feasible. You see, I want everyone to freely choose to believe in me. But if I were to step in every time someone was about to be raped or murdered, then the evidence would be so clear-cut that everyone would be forced to believe in me. Can you imagine a more diabolical infringement upon their free wills? Obviously, it was better for me to back off and let Ms. K. be raped and murdered. Now everyone can freely choose to believe that there is this extraordinary cop out there who loves them like his own children."

>"What are you complaining about?" exclaimed the seventh officer when I turned to him, his eyebrows shooting up in exasperated disbelief. "I just saved a woman from getting raped and murdered last week! Do I have to jump in every time I see something like that about to happen? I would say the fact that more women are not raped and murdered in this city is almost miraculous testimony to my goodness."

>The eighth officer, too, looked frustrated. "Nothing I do is good enough! Do you know how much worse it could have been? The thug actually had a blowtorch with him when he started out, but I said 'No way, not on my watch,' and knocked it away from him with my nightstick. Sure, I let him keep the switchblade, the pliers, the coat hanger, and the vial of acid, but think how much worse it would have been with a blowtorch! Ms. K. should have thanked her lucky stars that someone so loving was there to watch over her."

>"I'll let you in on a secret," said the ninth officer. "Moments after Ms. K. flatlined, I had her resuscitated, and flown to a tropical resort where she is now experiencing extraordinary bliss, and her ordeal is just a distant memory. I'm sure you would agree that that's more than adequate compensation for her suffering, so the fact that I just stood there watching instead of intervening has no bearing at all on my goodness."

>The tenth officer gave us all quite a start when he revealed a surprising secret about Ms. K. "I genetically engineered her from scratch. I made her, therefore she's my property, and I can do whatever I want with her. I could rape and murder her myself if I were so inclined, and it would be no worse than you tearing up a piece of paper you own. So there is no question of my being a bad person for not helping her."

>The eleventh officer chimed in, gesturing at the tenth officer "I hired him to create Ms. K. for me, because I wanted someone to love and worship me. But when I approached Ms. K about the matter, she actually turned away from me, as though she could find meaning and happiness with someone else! So I decided the loving thing to do would be to break her spirit by arranging to have her raped and murdered by a common thug, so that she might turn to me in her extraordinary suffering, thereby fulfilling the purpose for which she had been created. Well, mission accomplished, I'm happy to say! A few seconds before she died, she was so insane with terror and pain that she actually convinced herself she loved me, since she knew that only I could end her ordeal. I'll never forget the love in her eyes when she looked up at me the last time, begging for mercy, right before the thug bent over and slit her throat. It was so beautiful it still brings me to tears. Now I just have to go to that island so she can claim her prize of servitude."

>"Well, this is quite a coincidence," chuckled the twelfth officer. "It looks like the thug got himself double pay, because I actually hired him to carry out the murder, too! Why? Oh, well it was just a test. Ms. K. and I had been dating for some time (no offense, I didn't know she was someone else's property), and one beautiful night she finally told me she loved me. So, naturally, I wanted to see whether this was indeed love — that is, whether she would continue to adore me even while drowning in a pool of her own tears and blood, with me standing before her doing nothing."

It was specifically stated multiple times in the Bible that this world, with all its pleasures and sufferrings, is about as valuable as a grain of sand. The really important thing is that you believe with all your heart, and that you purify your heart by purging the desires that would lead you to sin. The real life comes after death, when you are either saved by your purity and the grace of God, or cast into the dark where there is sufferring and gnashing of teeth.

Basically, christianity is stoicism on steroids.

>By now, it had become clear to me that any difficulty I might have had in reconciling the presumed goodness of the officers with their behavior that day was unfounded, and that anyone who sided against them could do so only for love of evil over good. After all, anyone who has experienced their friendship in the way I have knows that they are good. Their goodness is even manifest in my life — I was in a shambles before I met them, but now everyone remarks on what a changed person I am, so much kinder and happier, apparently possessed of an inner calm. And I have met so many others who feel exactly the same way about them — so many who, like me, know in their hearts the truth that others try to rationalize away with their cold reason and sterile logic. I am ashamed that I ever doubted the entitlement of the twelve officers to my loyalty and my love.

>As I was getting ready to leave, the first officer spoke up again. "By the way, I also think you should know that when we stood there watching Ms. K. get raped and stabbed over and over, we were suffering along with her, and we experienced exactly the same pain she did, or perhaps even more." And everyone in the room, myself included, nodded his head in agreement.

Stay rustled, theists!

Say that to a civil court.

And the world is full of sand...

"Here's a list of misrepresentations of theistic points, hah, beat that theists!"

>And the world is full of sand...
And that's supposed to say/refute ...what?

I don't think that all of these are necessarily criticisms of theism. They seem to encompass many different philosophies

How about this: Before Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, they didn't have wisdom. So how could they comprehend the order to not eat of the fruit?

The equation is:

Earth < a grain of sand

But:

Earth = lots of sand + lots of other things

So how can Earth be less worth than a grain of sand?

>Misrepresentation

Are you seriously incapable of comprehending a metaphor, or are you just memeing?

The "grain of sand" isn't a formulation that was used in the Bible, anyway (there are several different passages on the insignificance of our world, and different ways of saying that are used). But the meaning is that this world is, to an actual christian (that is, the ideal of a christian), completely unimportant. That's why christianity is so difficult to practice - its perspective on the world is completely different (and quite alien) to the common man, who is from his birth taught to care primarily for earthly matters.

OP can you send me the link of wherever you got this from. Im assuming you didn't write this yourself. Pretty thought provoking though. Very good.

that christian you talk about obviously doesnt exist.

Christianity creates so many rediculous questions. More than a universe without a God. Why wouldn't god intervene on those he loves even if there is an afterworld. Why does he let people not have faith if he loves everyone. Why even create the world if theres this afterlife. I think at the end of the day you come up with the same existentialist questions. Why would God create the world?

>that christian you talk about obviously doesnt exist.
That's the ideal of a christian. Obviously it is nigh-impossible to achieve, just like every ideal is.
>Why wouldn't god intervene on those he loves even if there is an afterworld
This world and its sufferring is unimportant. Besides, He has left us a way to not feel the sufferring - faith. That's why I said christianity is stoicism on steroids.
>Why does he let people not have faith if he loves everyone.
>Why even create the world if theres this afterlife.
>Why would God create the world?
We do not know, as He never told us the reasons through His messengers. And what fruit would speculations about His reasons bear, anyway? Not only have we no way of verifying them, but there is no way to be sure that we would be able to comprehend them. The Absolute Being is not constrained by any laws (which include laws of logic) as It is the author of those laws, and may change them at will. See a similar argument in Hobbes' Leviathan, where he proves that the absolute ruler would not be subject to any law, as laws are just there to represent his will in case he doesn't choose to state it explicitely for that specific case.

i think all religious groups share some level of ascetism or something in that direction.

people with faith suffer dude and to say suffering is unimportant is ridiculous otherwise jesus wouldnt preach so much of what he said.

So is god just a ruler? or is he a lover?

Pretty sure Zoroastrians considered all forms of asceticism anathema to their religion.

We’ve changed society’s overall level of morality but not for individual people, that has not changed and secular nor religious law won't change that. i believe religion doesn't necessarily go out its way to teach ethics. that isnt the complete point.

okay but i think whatever i said still generally stands.

>i think all religious groups share some level of ascetism or something in that direction.
As far as I know, 'pagans' did not. Many, on the other hand, do.
>people with faith suffer dude and to say suffering is unimportant is ridiculous otherwise jesus wouldnt preach so much of what he said.
Such as? I'll put forward one of my favourite passages to illustrate my claim that the believer is not to concern himself with the earthly: Lk 12, 22-34. And if the believer doesn't concern himself with the earthly, the earthly causes him no despair, no sufferring. Thus faith helps eliminate sufferring.
>So is god just a ruler? or is he a lover?
What did you mean by this?

how are any of these misrepresentations? I've seen many of these arguments with nearly the same wordings. the only thing that's changed is that the subject is a police officer

even though theres an afterlife and god/jesus wants you to think about that, it still contradicts the idea of a loving god that would want to stop you from suffering. are you kididng? jesus is all about love and suffering. healing the sick etc. look at the beatitudes too.

Even if you only want to think of gods kingdom, you can't help but notice being stabbed in the leg.

I get the idea of faith and what it means, but you cant get away from the problem of evil if you have a god that cares about you. i dont even know where it says god cares about you, you'll have to get a citation for that (i know it must say it i think).

i mean is god your owner, your ruler or is he your friend and lover? or is he neither.

second this

>even though theres an afterlife and god/jesus wants you to think about that, it still contradicts the idea of a loving god that would want to stop you from suffering. are you kididng? jesus is all about love and suffering. healing the sick etc. look at the beatitudes too.
Jesus made an example of mercy as one of the most important qualities of a christian. He did not come here to abolish sufferring (""Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."), but to show us the way towards true salvation - faith. That is His mercy, not the healings.
>Even if you only want to think of gods kingdom, you can't help but notice being stabbed in the leg.
Yet the true christian would not care. Body? A shell for the soul - unimportant. Pain? Pain can be bared, and faith shall not falter - the soul - the important thing will be saved nonetheless.
>I get the idea of faith and what it means, but you cant get away from the problem of evil if you have a god that cares about you. i dont even know where it says god cares about you, you'll have to get a citation for that (i know it must say it i think).
The gifts of faith and salvation are God's mercy. And as for why the world is as it is, I have told you a few posts earlier - I know not, God never answered, which might indicate that our limited minds would not be able to comprehend it (although that may not necessarily be such).

Basically, God is not 'mercilless' for allowing evil and sufferring to exist in this world as, as I have repeatedly stated, this world is irrelevant. God had left us with the path to the true salvation -spiritual instead of corporeal - as an act of His infinite mercy, despite all the blasphemy and transgression our kind had done to Him.

>i mean is god your owner, your ruler or is he your friend and lover? or is he neither.
He is the Absolute, and cannot be reduced to any of these roles.

I have to get some sleep. Goodnight and may God bless you. It was a fun discussion, and kept me awake for a long time.

hmm fair enough.