Where does the concept of the "Devil" as supreme enemy of G-d originate from?

This. "The devil" as most people think of him was a concept that doesn't really exist in the bible and is entirely the result of folklore and oral tradition that happened extrabiblically.

From Zoroastrians probably.

>When did the idea of the Devil as supreme evil become part of Jewish tradition? Is it in the Talmud?
Jews don't believe the devil is the supreme evil. The Jewish god isn't omnibenevolent so there's no need to have an omnimalevolent pseudo-diety to counter this.

Pretty sure it comes from the Zoroastrians. Who also probably took it from older religions in the area.

The version of Satan that tempts Jesus in the desert and the Dragon of Revelation are pretty clear developments of the concept. I wish the "Dante/Milton invented Satan" meme would end.

Oh thats right.
The Pickles were Jews.
I completely forgot.

jews werent very big into the devil in general though and i think those conceptions like jewish or maybe older arent necessarily that similar to christians conception.

The answer is Zoroastrianism.
/thread

>developments of the concept.
Developments of the concept yes, but it still didn't exist as it does today at that point.

It originated during the second temple period slightly after the concept of demons as specific entities started coming about. Eventually, Satan became regarded as a specific, powerful figure and identified with a number of other mentions in the Hebrew bible aside from just Job. But he still wasn't an almost supremely powerful figure that controlled evil, tempted everyone, and ruled over hell. That's a specifically Christian idea, and it isn't detailed in the bible. It still took a long time for that idea to come into place. Dante and Milton didn't invent the devil, but they cemented what the popular conception of him was.

whats dante sayin then?

so i can safely tell protestants that claim sola scriptura that many of their beliefs are still infact memes?

>so i can safely tell protestants that claim sola scriptura that many of their beliefs are still infact memes?
If they're talking about how the devil causes/controls evil in the world, is constantly tempting everyone, and wants them to spend eternity in his dominion of hell, then yes.

Dante sort of formalized the image of the devil as a winged, demon-looking thing that ruler over hell from the deepest layers of it. He didn't invent any of that stuff (a lot of it comes from medieval interpretations of how Isiah depicted the king of Babylon), but he was able to combine some of the generalities of how the devil had come to be seen in the middle ages and present in a very influential way. Milton was even more influential because he combined the traits of a bunch of characters which had previously been seen as separate entities into one, singular Satan with the backstory that we all know.

Early Catholic really, Satan isn't even prominent in the New Testament, he is referenced as a sketchy sude sometimes (not very different from the Old Testament), but nowhere as the main villain. Except for maybe Revelations but that's very much up to interpretation.

i feel like theres definitely quite a few other christian beliefs which are only at best, ambiguously prescribed from the bible too, but memetics still carries them on despite the sola scriptura meme.

guess it makes sense that literature has big influence on how people think of devil. especially them two.

so...

who is the main villain of the new testament if there had to be one.

>but it still didn't exist as it does today at that point.
Oh sure, but that is rarely the claim being made. Usually it's that what we would understand as Satan and hell do not exist in the Bible at all and that they're entirely more recent folklore. Neither position, that the modern Satan exists in the text or that he is absent are actually accurate. It's sort of like the people who "correct" the fluffy pop-culture concept of angels by saying they exclusively crazy-looking abominations, when even the Sodom and Gomorrah story shows them taking the form of beautiful humans.

>If they're talking about how the devil causes/controls evil in the world, is constantly tempting everyone, and wants them to spend eternity in his dominion of hell, then yes.
Again, yes and no. For example, Satan is explicitly referred to as being "the God of this world/age" (depending on your translation) and very clearly has power over the minds of unbelievers. (2 Corinthians 4:4). Revelation does describe the Dragon as ruling for a period, though obviously in the end he is defeated, but ruling "forever" in Hell is more a pop-culture thing than a Protestant thing,

but is the dragon in revelation explicitely the devil?

wait so what do christians believe happens if you dont believe in jesus?

Maybe zoroastrianism and buddhism influenced the new testament

>G-d
SHLOMO GET AWFF DA KUMPYUTAH YA SUHPOSTAH BE STUDYIN TALMUD

The Dragon is "the ancient serpent, called the Devil or Satan, who decieves the entire world" (Revelation 12:9) so yes, probably. Even has his own legion of angels. I've heard some people say that "ancient serpent" refers to Leviathan rather than the snake in Eden, but I've not heard an academic opinion one way or another. But there is clearly at least a seed of what we recognize as the modern Satan here.

Canaanites

eh fair enough. isnt the leviathan the devil too.

Within Job itself, the Leviathan and Satan act and are described pretty differently. Of course, the original intent doesn't matter so much in the context of later retcons, but I haven't heard of people identifying Leviathan with Satan so much as reclassifying it as demonic rather than just a supremely dangerous animal.

wait, isnt the leviathan the one that ken ham says is a diplodocus i.e. dinosaur?

americccaaa, wheeerree u gooooo, go for jesus, no for gay jesussssss

KJV and Milton only invented the concept of LUCIFER, not Satan.

No one, the whole point is that God is the only god and no one is more powerful than him, so he can do anything he wants to, even if he is a jerk sometimes, you shouldn't question him.

It's more of a monster of the week kind of story desu where the monsters are usually people who disrespect God
>people get sinful
>God kills most of them with a flood
>people start to build tower to become like God
>God fucks up their languages
>people of Sodom and Gomorrah do too much buttsex
>God kills them all
>Egyptians oppress the Jews
>God fucks them up really bad
>Philistines/Babylonians/Assyrians whoever mess with the Jews
>Gods sends a Jewish hero who fucks them up really bad

my original answer when i asked was man but
holy shit, god is such a cunt, dont blame the gnostics and marcion for just calling him out for being a cunt.

i feel like spreading christianity to the gentiles is just god's way of trying to find a new chosen people because people in the middle east just werent up to it and hes sick of it. who knows, maybe the mormons will end up being the chosen ones.

This.

>Satan that tempts Jesus in the desert
Not much different from Satan testing Job.

Thats because Satan played the OT people. He tricked them into thinking he was just some minor figure as part of his plan.

The Christian God is even worse though. At least Jews don't believe in hell. According to them, most of those people (except for the really evil ones) will live again in a paradise on Earth when the Messiah comes. The Christian God however sends people he doesn't like (everyone who chose the wrong religion, gays etc.) to suffer for eternity.

>The Christian God however sends people he doesn't like (everyone who chose the wrong religion, gays etc.) to suffer for eternity.

Doesn't the kingdom of god on earth with the second coming also come with the final solution to all unbelievers, alive and dead? They'll all be literally wiped from existence.

Only according to Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

In the Old Testament, Satan is one of God's angels, tasked with dispensing the evils and misfortunes that God ordains. So I have no idea why he is suddenly assumed to be evil in the New Testament/Christian thought.

but do the gentiles go to paradise? i swear for a long time jews didnt even believe in afterlife.

yeah christian god is abit of a cunt, but he doesnt do it to your face.

i feel christian groups have moved away from a literal notion of hell. is this biblical?

Also, do you go to hell for sinning? or just not-believing? what if you were gay and believed?

He's not really evil in the New Testament either, that came later on as this thread's been talking about.

The Ugarit texts and the Book of Enoch are the go-to answer for this.

>G-d
>that dash
>that fucking capitalization

christ fags have the most annoying posting style and it's always instantly recognizable.

>legion of angels
>legion

catholics and their romans, kek. They decided to invent this whole mythology back story about all these fancy angels and this whole Eru/Melkor-esque bullshit with Lucifer and God and this whole 7 levels of hell bullshit and all that heavenly battle nonsense to make it sound more like the Greek mythology but not nearly as cool. Catholic mythology is a fucking joke, it's so damn boring.
>muh angels and demons with power levels lol ANGEL POWER RANKINGS 1)Michael 2)Lucifer 3)Gabriel hurrrr

i dont think you know what youre talking about.

I think I know that the Christian "devil/god/angel/demon" mythology is obviously just some made up shit after-the-fact to make it more exciting and to scare people into conversion. I mean, all of these things are loosely mentioned, but never explained in this big mythological gods vs titans-like confrontation. I bet modern translations of the Bible took various separate villains and demons and just mashed them all into a singular "devil" as propaganda, and you think you know your shit because you read modern bibles that are always translated poorly or intentionally wrong for political correctness.

It's fucking obvious that the whole battle in heaven lore was created by combining various aspects of pagan religions, that all had concepts of demons and heaven and some sort of demi-god soldiers that serve God himself. (angels=lesser gods of mythology)

Even the concept of the "half-god-half man" is just Hercules, jesus isn't even an original idea.

Read this book. It's a great overview of the history of the devil.

you an atheist?

is that an irrelevant question that avoids the content of my post in attempt at character assassination, the most common logical fallacy? You're damn right it is.

im not trying to slander you or argue with you.

Huh, the legions and heavenly battle things are actually real.
Revelation 12:7-9 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers,

8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;

9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
Note that "messengers" here is the actual word for "angels".

do you not understand that the Bible we know is a Greek translation, and it's been heavily modified since it's inception a few hundred years after jesus? Do you legitimately believe that those similarities between Christian and Greek mythology are completely coincidental? That they'd just happen to name the heavenly armies after their contemporary imperial masters?

Do you have any proof that they have been "heavily" modified? No doubt that many of the translations did modify minor details, but I don't believe that it has been changed to the point where they just added complete fanfiction.

And besides, even the Torah mentions armed angels. Take a look at this in any translation you wish:

Joshua 5:13-15 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

13 And it cometh to pass in Joshua's being by Jericho, that he lifteth up his eyes, and looketh, and lo, one standing over-against him, and his drawn sword in his hand, and Joshua goeth unto him, and saith to him, `Art thou for us or for our adversaries?'

14 And He saith, `No, for I [am] Prince of Jehovah's host; now I have come;' and Joshua falleth on his face to the earth, and doth obeisance, and saith to Him, `What is my Lord speaking unto His servant?'

15 And the Prince of Jehovah's host saith unto Joshua, `Cast off thy shoe from off thy foot, for the place on which thou art standing is holy;' and Joshua doth so;

i think the opinion of most contemporary scholars is that the writers of the gospel were just winging it to encourage as many converts and keep as consistent as possible; just adding things in to answer questions. dont know about revelation though.

None of this is implied to be connected to one big mythological lore, it's simple to understand that their ancient understanding of God would be as a warrior king, with a host of incorruptable warriors at his disposal, but do you really believe that that a guy like jesus wanted people to view heaven as a warrior society just like on Earth, even though he was a pacifist? This is obviously embellishment after the fact to better fit Christian beliefs into roman warrior culture. People literally could not fathom a peaceful god, because they had never known strength or unity without war; war held the empire together, made it rich and strong, and united it's people against a common enemy. A singular evil at the heart of the religious lore with his own heavenly back story as the beautiful angel falling from grace and committing himself eternally to the hatred and conquest of mankind, God's golden children made in his image. It's easy to unite people when you tell them that the devil is trying to divide and conquer humanity through false prophets and shit, and is therefore corrupting the minds of your enemies. Just look at how easily romans fit the Huns into their revelations rherotic, or how easily Muhammad can be viewed as the devil's tool of deception and conquest. Christianity molded itself into an "us vs them" mindset with an eternal conflict with the devil because that was how the world operated and how christianity needed to evolve if it wanted to survive in that society.

What the fuck were angels doing before the rebellion anyway? Why did they need weapons? Why we're they warriors if there wasn't anything to fight yet? The more you think about it the more it doesn't make any sense, especially considering how contradictory the popular image of good old hippy peaceful jesus is compared to the warrior king that the Romans made him into.

His word is his sword, he was never suppose to actually have a sword.

Satan testing Job is explicitly presented as him working for God, or at least requiring God'a permission in order to do his work. Satan in the desert doesn't have this detail, but is still able to do things like offer earthly kingdoms. He also tries to get Jesus to worship him specifically, rather than Job Satan who just wanted to prove that Job would renounce God. These might seem like minor distinctions, but they're pretty important details in terms of how the concept evoloved.