Is Tibetan Buddhism basically Paganism?

welcome to Veeky Forums!

the original definition of paganism is pretty much any religion which isn't judeo-christian/abrahamic.

It's an esoteric branch of Buddhism, and very ethnically-influenced (Tibetan mountain culture, obvs).

I'm mystified why westerners join it though, because to me it's like joining Ethiopian Orthodox when searching for a branch of Christianity to follow. It's so culturally specific and full of some pretty oddball shit.

As far as Buddhism goes, it is 'rich' and has its share of worthy redeeming points, but there are 'better' Buddhist schools in my opinion.

Buddhism always syncretized its philosophy with the local pantheons.

If by "Pagan" you simply mean 'nonchristian', then yes.

If by "Pagan" you mean a polytheistic cult...no:

>Tsultrim's Reply

All visualizations are imagination.
All imagination is appearance/emptiness.
Without being attached to appearance/emptiness as real,
rest without fixation, without focus.

Death and no death, these are also imagined.
In the expanse of equality, there's neither death nor no death.
The same with dark and light and gods and demons.
The expanse of equality is all there is.
I have never seen a single thing that's real.

I'm intrigued by it because of lucid dreaming and tulpas. As far as I'm aware these are exclusive to Tibetan Buddhism, right? So how can you argue it's not clearly the best?

There is, however, some deeper history in Vajrayana relating to its formulation:

>Various classes of Vajrayana literature developed as a result of royal courts sponsoring both Buddhism and Saivism. The Mañjusrimulakalpa, which later came to be classified under Kriyatantra, states that mantras taught in the Shaiva, Garuda and Vaishnava tantras will be effective if applied by Buddhists since they were all taught originally by Manjushri. The Guhyasiddhi of Padmavajra, a work associated with the Guhyasamaja tradition, prescribes acting as a Shaiva guru and initiating members into Saiva Siddhanta scriptures and mandalas. The Samvara tantra texts adopted the pitha list from the Shaiva text Tantrasadbhava, introducing a copying error where a deity was mistaken for a place.

You can read more about this here:
alexissanderson.com/uploads/6/2/7/6/6276908/sanderson_2009_the_saiva_age.pdf

>judeo-christian

When will this meme die?

>As far as I'm aware these are exclusive to Tibetan Buddhism, right?
As far as the actual practice known as 'dream yoga', yes, but a number of occult lines of transmission deal heavily in how to practice mysticism while in a lucid dream.

The same is largely true of 'tulpas', but there are again a large number of occult traditions dealing with the construction of thoughtforms; the Fraternitas Saturni are essentially an egregore cult venerating GOTOS. The upper degrees of Crowley's OTO initiations deal with custom creation of spirits and entities through the use of sexual magick.

>best
I guess this largely depends on what we mean by 'best'. If by 'best' we mean closest to the source, other schools of Buddhism are older and don't deal with this massive litany of devotional godforms. That said, one of Buddha's early followers was Vaisanga, a man who was almost certainly a kapalika mystic. The following story is in Dhammapada, but we've got fragments of varying detail elsewhere such as the Pali canon and a number of poems attributed to the dude:

Once, in Rajagaha, there was a brahmin by the name of Vangisa, who by simply tapping on the skull of a dead person could tell whether that person was reborn in the world of the devas, or of the human beings, or in one of the four lower worlds (apayas). The brahmins took Vangisa to many villages and people flocked to him and paid him ten, twenty or a hundred to find out from him where their various dead relatives were reborn.

>*Vangisa*, a man who was almost certainly a kapalika mystic
(obviously)

On one occasion, Vangisa and his party came to a place not far from the Jetavana monastery. Seeing those people, who were going to the Buddha, the brahmins invited them to come to Vangisa, who could tell where their relatives had been reborn. But the Buddha's disciples said to them, "Our teacher is one without a rival, he only is the Enlightened One." The brahmins took that statement as a challenge and took Vangisa along with them to the Jetavana monastery to compete with the Buddha. The Buddha, knowing their intention, instructed the Bhikkhus to bring the skulls of a person reborn in niraya, of a person reborn in the animal world, of a person reborn in the human world, of a person reborn in the deva world and also of an Arahat.

The five were then placed in a row. When Vangisa was shown those skulls he could tell where the owners of the first four skulls were reborn, but when he came to the skull of the Arahat, he was at a loss. Then the Buddha said, "Vangisa, don't you know? I do know, where the owner of that skull is." Vangisa then asked the Buddha to let him have the magical incantation (mantra) by which he could thus know; but the Buddha told him that the mantra could be given only to a Bhikkhu. Vangisa then told the brahmins to wait outside the monastery, while he was being taught the mantra. Thus, Vangisa became a Bhikkhu and as a Bhikkhu, he was instructed by the Buddha to contemplate the thirty-two constituents of the body. Vangisa diligently practised meditation as instructed by the Buddha and attained Arahatship within a short time.

Nyingma
"The Ancient Ones" is the oldest school of Tibetan Buddhism and the original order founded by Padmasambhava and Śāntarakṣita. Whereas other schools categorize their teachings into the three yānas or "vehicles", Hīnayāna, Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna, the Nyingma tradition classifies its teachings into Nine Yānas, among the highest of which is Dzogchen. Terma "treasures" (revealed texts) are of particular significance to the Nyingma school.

Kagyu
"Lineage of the (Buddha's) Word". This is an oral tradition which is very much concerned with the experiential dimension of meditation. Its most famous exponent was Milarepa, an 11th-century mystic. It contains one major and one minor subsect. The first, the Dagpo Kagyu, encompasses those Kagyu schools that trace back to the Indian master Naropa via Marpa Lotsawa, Milarepa and Gampopa and consists of four major sub-sects.

Sakya
The "Grey Earth" school represents the scholarly tradition. Headed by the Sakya Trizin, this tradition was founded by Khön Könchok Gyelpo (Wylie: 'khon dkon mchog rgyal po, 1034–1102), a disciple of the great lotsāwa Drogmi Shākya (Wylie: brog mi lo tsā wa ye shes) and traces its lineage to the mahasiddha Virūpa. A renowned exponent, Sakya Pandita, was the great-grandson of Khön Könchok Gyelpo.

Gelug
The "Way of Virtue" school was originally a reformist movement and is known for its emphasis on logic and debate. The order was founded in the 14th to 15th century by Je Tsongkhapa, renowned for both his scholarship and virtue. Its spiritual head is the Ganden Tripa and its temporal one the Dalai Lama.

These first four major schools are sometimes said to constitute the Nyingma "Old Translation" and Sarma "New Translation" traditions, the latter following from the historical Kadam lineage of translations and tantric lineages. Another common but trivial differentiation is into the Yellow Hat (Gelug) and Red Hat (non-Gelug) sects.

There is some interesting history in Tibet's interface with Christianity:

The first Christians documented to have reached Tibet were the Nestorians, of whom various remains and inscriptions have been found in Tibet. They were also present at the imperial camp of Möngke Khan at Shira Ordo, where they debated in 1256 with Karma Pakshi (1204/6-83), head of the Karma Kagyu order. Desideri, who reached Lhasa in 1716, encountered Armenian and Russian merchants.

Roman Catholic Jesuits and Capuchins arrived from Europe in the 17th and 18th centuries. Portuguese missionaries Jesuit Father António de Andrade and Brother Manuel Marques first reached the kingdom of Gelu in western Tibet in 1624 and was welcomed by the royal family who allowed them to build a church later on. By 1627, there were about a hundred local converts in the Guge kingdom. Later on, Christianity was introduced to Rudok, Ladakh and Tsang and was welcomed by the ruler of the Tsang kingdom, where Andrade and his fellows established a Jesuit outpost at Shigatse in 1626.

In 1661 another Jesuit, Johann Grueber, crossed Tibet from Sining to Lhasa (where he spent a month), before heading on to Nepal. He was followed by others who actually built a church in Lhasa. These included the Jesuit Father Ippolito Desideri, 1716–1721, who gained a deep knowledge of Tibetan culture, language and Buddhism, and various Capuchins in 1707–1711, 1716–1733 and 1741–1745, Christianity was used by some Tibetan monarchs and their courts and the Karmapa sect lamas to counterbalance the influence of the Gelugpa sect in the 17th century until in 1745 when all the missionaries were expelled at the lama's insistence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ippolito_Desideri#Journey_to_Tibet
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/António_de_Andrade
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Grueber

youtube.com/watch?v=dpmyoKAaHOM

youtube.com/watch?v=AIomqpX3Ek0

youtube.com/watch?v=DQ6ksMys8dg

youtube.com/watch?v=T_I5Ahe8c64

youtube.com/watch?v=bDezBavzams

DEDICATION TO MAHAKALA

O Mahakala, embodiment of the compassion Of the Buddhas of the ten directions (1) Who, in order to bring into training The beings of this degenerate age who are Most difficult to train, Manifest a dance of wrathful emanations With skillful means that pacify trainees: Mahalcala, who is one in nature with all Buddhas!
O Mahakala, who, freed from the chains Of the obscurations to freedom and omniscience, Dwells in the total purity of knowledge Inexpressible and vast as the sky, A fountainhead of wisdom of the 84,000 doctrines: Mahakala, who is one in nature with all Dharmas!
O Mahakala, father of the Buddhas Of countless world systems, Son who sits chief amongst The bodhisattva heroes of the ten stages, An elder amongst the exalted assembly Of Sravaka Arhants and Pratyekabuddhas: Mahakala, who is one in nature with all Sanghas!
O Mahakala, who, in order to subdue The forces of evil, emanates dancing forms Of wrathful deities that release a rain Of attainments both mystical and supreme, A veritable shower of the two siddhis: Mahakala, who is one in nature with all gurus, Present and lineage!
O Mahakala, at one nature with the holy gurus, Roots of all spiritual progress, And one with the inexpressible Dharmadhatu knowledge, With skillful means you emanate wrathful methods To annihilate the forces of negativity: Mahakala, who is one in nature with one's own Spiritual master and protector!
Chief protector of the teachings of the Enlightened Ones,
O Mahakala, source of boundless strength Able to turn back the army of evil forces!
O Mahakala, the Instant Achiever, embodiment of Avalokiteshvara, the mighty Bodhisattva of Compassion, A mere thought of whom eliminates in this life Every condition opposing spiritual progress, In the Bardho gives freedom from all fear And thereafter guides one to the Pure Land of Vajra Yogini: Mahakala, embodiment of every source of Spiritual refuge!

Unborn, yet continuing without interruption
neither coming nor going, omnipresent
Supreme Dharma
unchangeable space, without definition
spontaneously self-liberating-
perfectly unobstructed state-
manifest from the very beginning
self-created, without location
with nothing negative to reject
and nothing positive to accept
infinite expanse, penetrating everywhere
immense, and without limits, without ties
with nothing even to dissolve
or to be liberated from
manifest beyond space and time
existing from the beginning
immense inner space,
radiant through clarity
like the Sun and the Moon,
self-perfected
indestructible like a Vajra
stable as a mountain
pure as a lotus
strong as a lion
incomparable pleasure beyond all limits
illumination, equanimity
peak of the Dharma
light of the [U]niverse
perfect from the beginning

Vajryana Buddhism or Tibetan Buddhism is a mixture between Mahayana Buddhism and Tantric practices adopted from Hinduism.

Already been covered here: I'm more interested in Saivism myself (Uttara Kaula Trika) but I've been using Buddhist iconography for devotional matters as a gateway into Lord Shiva. Particularly 16 Armed Hevajra.

I don't think a synthesis of ideas automatically rules out legitimacy, particularly when this admixture was the organic result of debates between factions competing for patronage.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chöd

Pretty sure half the books cited are in my library.

can you share it?

Main link at top of thread:
Vajrayana:
mega.nz/#F!QdgBDYJY!WsfyXE-j4KTtyeHlE6PWtw

Tibetan:
mega.nz/#F!lNpE2LYJ!dW3xwFeRzqZ2zgtanebv0A

Bon>Buddhism

Well, they've been declared the fifth major Tibetan Vajrayana school so....what now?

Am i disrespectful if i feel like pounding that godess/buddha's puffy red vagina?

No, that's what Vajrayogini's there for. She's a Wisdom Consort, one of the sky-going Dakini.

Thanks my user friend. Though I feel you are someone I don't like, I respect you. I'd be very honoured if you could share your point of view on some topics.
What do you think about Tibetan Buddhism in contrast with other Buddhisms?
Can you give me insight on the difference between a layperson and a monk in Tibetan Buddhism? I'd seem to me that people often take Buddhisms out of context and think Buddhism is restricted to monastic life.
I'll think about more questions to keep the thread alive. Blessings.

It is the opposite of Buddhism for normies. Many of the high lamas were upset that supposedly secret esoteric doctrines and practices were posted on the Internet. One of the pillars of Tibetan Buddhism is the lama student relationship, where the teacher gradually reveals more and more advanced teachings to prepared students

>What do you think about Tibetan Buddhism in contrast with other Buddhisms?
Perfectly legit. There's evidence that Tantra has been a component of Buddhism since the start though we lack the archaeo-historical data to validate this. Vajrayana as a Tibetan practice only started to stratify after , with synthesis alongside local practices and sometimes integration of leftovers of Zoroastrianism (there's good conjecture that the Sky Burial has roots in Towers of Silence, which could possibly explain the tantra strains in early Buddhism).

>Can you give me insight on the difference between a layperson and a monk in Tibetan Buddhism
Essentially what it says in the Pali Canon. Paradoxically, Vajrayana monks still expected to take all the exoteric Buddhist vows of renunciation even though it's explicitly understood these are to be broken if you advance to Vajrayana practice (this is probably a component of the whole 'transgression' thing).

Moreover, there's a serious caste stratification in Tibet. Your layfolk weren't going to be sent to the monastery unless there were mitigating circumstances (i.e. famine).

You don't have to join one of the major monastic schools to be a "Buddhist in Tibet" but you almost certainly have to have spent time there, either in Tibet or at a Dharma Center, to practice so-called "Tibetan Buddhism".

>all this edgy art
What the fuck was their problem?

That sounds exactly like how the Mormons and Scientologists get people to join their cults

>Many of the high lamas were upset that supposedly secret esoteric doctrines and practices were posted on the Internet
Fuck 'em.
These are spiritually degenerate times. The teachings NEED spread. This is why Lhamo Dondrub is handing out Kalachakra initiations like water.

My library is for educational purposes. If they're upset I'm posting highly guarded Kurukulla praxes, tough titty. Besides, anyone who thumbs through my library that's SERIOUS about practice is going to ring their local Dharma Center for lineal instruction.

For what it's worth I'm incredibly skeptical of the Gelug school, particularly in the way they've handled the Dorje Shugden controversy.

>where the teacher gradually reveals more and more advanced teachings to prepared students
If we accept that the early Buddhist tantras assert that Saivist praxis can get you to Attainment, then this *inherently* advocates for self-initiation through devotion to Raktadevi as guru until Shiva-consciousness awakens in all its wrathful splendor to unfold the lotus of instruction.

Wouldn't breaking the vows make every other Buddhism rotundly reject Tibetan Buddhism? I see no reason to defend a belief that contradicts itself.
Has there been any relationship between Tibetan Buddhism and other Buddhisms?
Was/is there any connection with Tibetan Buddhism and politics in Tibet? Any major conversion or persecution?

>I see no reason to defend a belief that contradicts itself.
The contradiction is the point. Such is the way of 'vamacara' or Left Hand practice, it's inherently transgressive in the breaking of societal norms as an instructional and devotional practice.

If you think vow breaking is bad, please do NOT go read through Hevajra Tantra, as that's just the tip of the iceberg.

>Relationship
Of course, after exile the Tibetan schools have set up shop in India. Vajrayana's been practiced in other locations but it's nowhere near as popular or as codified as it is in Tibet.

The history of the Tibetan schools is the history of Tibetan politics.

>conversion/prosecution
There was some huge butthurt about Bon historically but the monestaries got over it as they started integrating rituals.

Other than that the rise of the schools was comparatively tame. Conflict was driven mostly by internal rivalry or friction with outsiders (particularly Islam).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibetan_Buddhism

>polytheistic cult
Does not compute. The first things to ever be called cults were when a group of polytheists chose to only acknowledge their patron god rather than the entire pantheon. So by definition most monotheistic religions are cults. The most well known, the Abrahamic faiths, are the cult of Yahweh, the Canaanite god of war. They wrote out all other gods in their texts and focussed their energy on this one god, representative of a force of conquering and submission, and boy did they conquer and get people to submit. Really makes u think.

As for the thread topic look into Hermeticism and you'll understand why most polytheist faiths are alike. They are actually pantheism (which is why they use the word pantheon). The pantheon is meant to represent ultimate divinity as a whole, yet broken down into different forces so we can better understand said universal whole. Monotheism came about when cults came to dominate affairs, and they came about for that purpose, to use a legitimate form of studying the universe to dominate and control people through the use of fear of the divine. That their cult and their temple are that of the true god, and only through them can you attain its blessing.

Pretty good tactic if you think about it.

In terms of anthropology and sociology, cult simply means small religion.

>look into Hermeticism
You're talking to a Thelemite who has read through just about every single scrap of valid and legitimate Hermetic knowledge there is, from the Corpus to Chaldean Oracles.

I don't think vow breaking is inherently bad, it depends on the reason they are breaking them. My logic was only driven by the fact that Buddha teached how to doubt any belief and to follow logic precepts to judge if it's a true or false religion. In this context, and due to ignorance in the topic I can't see how can they still be Buddhists. I'll have to read more about vamacara.
Another thing that comes to my mind. Do they preach? Keeping in mind the Left Hand practice, what lifestyle do they follow? Is it like other Buddhisms monastic lifestyle and daily life?

The biggest judeo-christian meme died around 30. A.D.