Looking back on it now was there anyway that the United States and Russia could become allies following themail...

Democracy has mainly moved East and in general former Soviet controlled states have preferred to look to the West for greater freedom and prosperity and Putin doesn't like it.

I never said "bad" that's not really a useful term.

You insult people who are intentionally clowns.

Would "fish hat" helped you identify this person?

That Argie cuck?

I don't think it is something conspiracy honestly, the United States and Russia have conflicting area of influence. Also residual hate from the cold war and the fact Putin is oligarchical dictator makes it easy to demonize them.

>Democracy has mainly moved East and in general former Soviet controlled states have preferred to look to the West for greater freedom and prosperity and Putin doesn't like it.

Eastern Europe liked all the money that Western Europe showered on them.

Schengen, the Euro, austerity, and regulatory harmonization? Not so much.

>Schengen, the Euro
Most East European EU countries are in Schengen and several are in the Eurozone.

True but I think the west must really think about how much it's worth allying with these countries. Is it worth the hate of Russia to have the Ukraine in Nato or the European Union. What can these eastern countries really provide. I mean some cases make alot of sense like Poland which is a strong state and good ally. They have a bright economic future and they actually provide assistance in military matters. Could Georgia do the same. I don't think it is worth the cost geopolitically speaking to ally with any Eastern European country looking to leave the Russian sphere of influence.

Also sorry for making your argument sound simpler than it was.

Did he really say that once?

Surely it should be up to them to decide. The EU and the US may exercise a large amount of soft power but I don't see them offering an ultimatum to Eastern European states side with us or we will invade you".

Well I see it this way. The European Union and United States should not be compelled or forced into an alliance with any nation that seeks it. They need the flexibility to decide whether it is in their best interest to ally these countries.
Also I do agree European alliance and dominance is much preferable to Russian, because they have the capital and influence to exercise soft power. Russia simply lacks these resources, which necessitates an aggressive stance against the western allies. Russia is forced to show that the western Powers won't sacrifice their resources to help eastern europeans to keeps its "allies" in check.

For example the invasion of Crimea was nessary precisely because Russia failed in its use of soft power,which is cheap. Thus they felt compelled to use hard power,which is expensive to salvage what they could.

>The European Union and United States should not be compelled or forced into an alliance with any nation that seeks it. They need the flexibility to decide whether it is in their best interest to ally these countries.

The best interest of the EU and the USA and mankind is to foster freedom and democracy. Everything else is just short term thinking that always backfires in the long run.

> "For America, the chief geopolitical prize is Eurasia"
Zbigniew Brzezinski

Because Russia is contesting our dominance

I agree on a long term, but not every action can be strictly long term. Otherwise you leave yourself inflexible to short term trends and can lose alot what you have gained.

But I do agree with you. However I believe that Russia is the ultimate goal of this policy and we can't afford to ostrarise Russia. I believe it is in the Wests interests to integrate Russia into a mutually respectful relationship. This is believe would be the easiest way to help spur Russian democracy, by not allowing them to demonize the west and helping prosperity spread. If we can do this I do believe the rest of the region will follow.

To summarize I think the politics requires some dexterity. I believe Russia should be the ultimate goal of western integration, not culturally but economically and politically. I also believe this policy is something that has to be done subtly and forcing it will only further the goal and cause bloodshed now.

It depends on how close the USA wants to keep their European allies.

Right now it would make nothing but perfect sense for the USA to ally with Russia were it not for the fact that Russia has less than favourable relations with the majority of Europe and how that's the way the bigger European countries like it.

No the American chief political goal is Eurasia disunity everything else is secondary.

the USA has always been closer with China though

besides US policy basically just plays Russia-China-India off one another, as well as smaller states against those big three

True, but I do believe an alliance between Western European capital and Russia resources is mutually beneficial. That being said the further east and closer to Russia you get the more complex this becomes.

True but Russia is waning in power and it could be dangerous to push Russia into closer relations with China.

this. Russia as well as the EU are natural enemies of the US. Both together are the only force that can rival US hegemony. Also the US always need to exploint countries for their own benefit.

Russia is not an existential threat to the West, we don't need to that concerned about it other than as a rather minor player that seeks to undermine and bully its neighbours.

There's no real reason to pander to them.

it will never happen
China is a predator and so is Russia

Russia knows getting too close with China will mean losing Siberia, and they are very vulnerable in the East.

China as well can't get in bed with Russia because of their internal issues and Russian expertise at inflaming them

Not a chance. Russia doesn't trust the US (or the west in general), and the feeling is mutual, with some justification on both sides. Centuries of political and military opposition. It just briefly looked like things might change because nobody remembered the era before the USSR and thought communism was solely responsible for the hostility when it goes a lot deeper than that.

...Santa Claus?

>China is a predator
Not exactly fair. How many wars have China been embroilled in the past 70 years? How many wars have the US been in?

Wars are only one aspect of it. Also Korea Tibet India and The turks in the west

>Korea
They only fought in that war once MacArthur thought it would be a good idea to capture all of Korea. China doesn't want US military bases on it's door step so it's understandable they pushed back and got involved in the war.
>Tibet
Good point
>India
Nehru was being a dick about the McMahon Line
>The turks in the west
Don't know what you mean here

On the other hand you have:
>Vietnam
>Grenada
>Cuba - Bay of Pigs
>Regime change in Iran (Operation Ajax) - removing mossadegh and replacing him with the Shah
>Nicaragua Contras
>Regime change in Chile - installing Pinochet
>First gulf war
>Second gulf war
>Afganistan

I'm probably missing a lot more

you missed secret war with Soviet Union and invasion of Vietnam

russia invaded georgia and ukraine in the last decade and also regularly threatens American allies in the baltics

>China doesn't want US military bases on it's door step

>bitches about Cuba

America didnt want a Soviet puppet with nukes on its door step

Currently, yes.

I'm not saying I don't understand the beef between US and the USSR.

I'm saying I don't understand the beef between US and Russia. It seems contrived. Manufactured. Deceptive.

Are they?

Or are they trying to remove kebab?

Lives in perpetual winter.
Distributes what other people make and he does not pay for.
Only works 1 day per year.

Checks out.

Aye, I get that. We only promised to aid Ukraine if they were attacked via nukes.

Kind of a gaping hole in that treaty imho.

Bush the Younger asked the world if anyone gave a shit if Russia took Georgia, and nobody did.

Obama asked the same questions over Crimea and 1/2 Ukraine, and again, nobody gave a shit.

Lol, I don't have a dog in this fight. Countries fight for their interests and that's understandable - what's not right though is when people try to claim the moral highground by saying China is a predator (like this user )

HW Bush also willingly ceded power when he was done.

He got his ass kicked to the curb for instituting new taxes after "Read my lips, no new taxes".

GOP actually gives a shit about people who violate everything they say they stand for.

Russia asked America to invite them, and the Americans said we don't send invitations (i'd like to mention Montenegro here).
Similar to how Japan said that they were up for piece if the Americans offered it, between Hiroshima and Nagasaki. After which they agreed to unconditional surrender.

So it's only natural for Russia to act defensive.