When will Islam go through its Reformation?

Is that brand of Islamism similar to Wahabbism though?

I think the Saud Wahabbism is worse than any other brand of conservative Islam especially since they have the resources to spread it.

I don't think there people asking for an "Islamic Reformation" truly understand what that means.

Like, putting aside that it's retarded from a theological perspective, they do remember that it led to two centuries is brutal religious warfare, right?

>the solution here is recognize Political Islam as a legitimate party.
Plz, the Catholic and Protestants can't really handle that.

what exactly do you think is happening in islam right now?

It happened in the 19th and 20th century with wahhabism.

would you call the 100,000+ dead from Shia v Sunni violence in the past decade nothing

Yeah, see Libya now.

There was hope for Gulinism but lol good luck with that now.

Could they at least kill each other, and leave the rest of us alone?

Can the word of God be reformed?

Not at all; in fact, I would say it's evidence that those who blithely call for a Reformation don't quite realize what they are asking for

No, but remember the European wars of religion killed tens of millions, hell parts of northern germany lost over 50% of their population. If Islam as a whole goes through a similar period it could be even worse.

Wasnt the rise of Shia the islamic equivalent? Or was that more of a Great Schism?

Its position in society, and what part of culture it is: Those can change.

It won't have time to do so before Sanders becomes gen-sec of the USSA.

Why do people think that, just because Christianity went through a reformation, that Islam has to go through some sort of equivalent phase? What's more, many people, including in this thread, seem to automatically assume that it'll happen at the same time and in a similar manner to the Protestant Reformation, for no reason.

I hate this meme.

Believe it or not, people actually think that religion is anything but worthless.

Sanders will never hold presidency.

Cry harder lefty 'muh entryism'

People also get confused that different religions occupy socities in different ways.
I.e Celtic Druids being a higher social class only, where the rest of society would basically be faithless.
The exact same is true for a lot of Buddhism, where The Monks are faith, and plebs are not really.
But it varies a lot.
Even inside Islam it varies a lot how Univeral God is, and how big deal Muhammed is.

>Even inside Islam it varies a lot how Univeral God is, and how big deal Muhammed is.
Surely to a lesser degree than you're suggesting with the preceding highly involved/high uninvolved populations

That was more political than religious. If I'm not mistaken, the Shia was just basically people that thought Ali should have been the Khalifa after the death of Mohammad.

Todays Islam is a more involved religion than Christianity today, 50 years ago and 100 years ago.
Just like how Protestantism is more passive than Catholicism.

But the big point: When Western nations move towards apathy, Islam doesn't have the same fundations, so it won't be affected in the same manner.
It also won't need a Christian Reformation, because it doesn't have a large priest caste.

Oil is running out and rest of the world is getting sick of Islam. Sure, they can reform.

The problem is if they will be able to do so before the world gets tired of them and before when their biggest asset (oil) runs out. The world won't wait for them to reform and I feel like they still have a lot to go through

The ""world""/developed can only be so tolerant before we forget about WW, scarce resources and then we'll go back to killing each other like usual

IMO it's impossible the Quran and Hadith's could never be reformed since the Quran is considered to be perfectly clear and the Sahih narratives can't be reinterpreted from its obvious meaning

No, but they did label it Judeo-Masonic propaganda.

It is happening right now. Unfortunately they are becoming more hardliner fanatical instead of more secular liberal.

Blame Saudis and Gulf Arabs that bankroll terrorists to spread islam and wahhabism

Who is the Martin Luther of Islam?

Bump for an interesting thread

In 500 years at least. I believe that Islam is now going through its Middle Ages.

We're living its reformation and Wahab was Martin Luthar.

Praying for muslim voltaire any minute now.

why does Martin Luther look like Ryan Gosling?

you dont understand islam

islam is reforming all the time, especialy today, every major political, demographic or cultural change in the muslim world has been either a consequence of or a part of a reformation movement, almost every major war, uprising, revolution or goverment change in the muslim world happened during or because of a reformation movement, theres a more or less violet, more or less succesfull, more or less global reformation in islam every couple generations, almost every succesful dinasty, state, country or nation in the muslim world has been started by or results from some reformation movement, even all the divisions in islam, shia, suni, sufi etc are all the result of reformation movements

its just that islam is pretty much shit as a religion and every reform literaly just takes it back to basics, which is always and without fault its main goal, to go back to basic, pure, pristine literal teaching of the koran, and which basics are autistic as fuck to say the least

not that there arent any merits to it, in a strange way its almost zen, its just autistic as fuck

Merkel

Nah, Merkel is Charles the Fifth in this analogy.

>I don't think there people asking for an "Islamic Reformation" truly understand what that means.

It's something I notice about Ayaan anytime she talks about Western history and culture, like it only exists in her world as a foible.

I would push it back even further to the turn of the 20th century with the various Salafi (not to be confused with the later Salafist movement) thinkers and reformers operating out of places like Egypt and India, and the political movements of Pan-Arab ideology and Islamism are something that actually disrupted it.

The Islamic Wars of Religion have actually yet to start, and we've just been dealing with the chaff of a traditional proxy war stand-off so far between various foreign and local actors.

Islamism and Wahabbi/Salafism are neither mutually exclusive nor synonymous, and you can have both Salafi Islamists and Islamists who hate them, as well as apolitical Salafists. Recently Islamism has taken a Wahhabi/Salafi/Deobandi turn in various places because of the spread of Gulf Arab funded private schools throughout the Muslim world.

Originally, Islam was a religion that occupied an upper stratum in Middle Eastern society, or segregated entirely from the rest of the population. A big part of the current problem of fanaticism is that it's gone through and is in the process of going through popular religious revivalism in which things like personal faith and public spiritual welfare are no longer a matter of supporting some local dervishes and mendicants to do some holy-man things on weddings and other occasions, but now a form of social engineering and political ideology for the likes of radicals and fundamentalists.

>That was more political than religious
What do you think the reformation was? Or any other "religious" event?

You should really go read about 11/12th century Islamic debates. The word of god has been constantly challenged, disputed, and generally interpreted in many different ways.

Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab

American negros have similar average iqs to sand niggers and are just as violent. They are Christian but: ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43
The cause of violence is not ideology but biology

>The solution here is to to recognize the national socialist as a legitimate party.
Given enough time they will liberalize all by themselves and "fascist" parties will be just as antidemocratic as the "socialist" SPD of weimar as communists.

Enlightenment > Reformation

Most likely never, Islam is more likely to completely collapse because of their rigid dogmatism.

This and only this. Muhammad is an actual historic person that exists, and his sayings (Hadith) were recorded.

The only possible way for a Muslim to be progressive is if he somehow convinces himself that the vast majority of Verified Hadiths are actually false, and that the Quran can be interpreted in a non-literal way.

t. muslim

>there's ingkarsunnah near me
Into the fire you go!

Salafism is their reformation

>ITT: People who have never formally studied Islam, its theology or history

Enlighten us, please.

>you are not allowed to discuss islam unless you went for a meme degree like Islamology

Yes

>islamology
>hey guys, we're here to study what non-muslims have said about Islam, with their sources being non-muslims, with their sources being translations of translations! We're also going to apply christian history and western philosophy to muslim texts and then we're going to be confounded when we don't come to the same conclusions as muslims do.
Seriously, I got the syllabi of Islamology from several different western universities, and this is how it turns out every single time.
At the same time, though, they'll throw in "orientalism" by Said in there, so they can claim they don't do the same orientalist shit as all the others.

I wouldn't say it was "segregated".
Druidism was segregated.
Upper class Islam? Things like how holy men interacted with the rest of society, and alms for the poor, meant that Lower Class was still Islam. Just filthier and more... apathetic.

>but now a form of social engineering
Any religion with worshippers and priests of some kind always had that