What was the effect of the Gothic invasions on population?

In other words, did France's population turn Germanic? Or was only the ruling class Germanic at this point? Same question for Iberia and Italy.

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An ancient people we all are, Goths we are not
Part of the ancient Slavdom are we.
Whoever says otherwise slanders and lies,
They will feel our fist.

In France only in septimania the rest was lost to fast, Italy also only Very little long time impact on the longtime population(structual problems) but in Spain/Portugal they left a pretty big impact

Are any of these places still mostly Germanic today? Cheers mate.

Goths never ruled France, wtf are you on about. Visigoths only occupied Aquitaine, but were kicked out by the Franks.

No, not even the goths in 4th/5th/6th century were homogene groupes(pls don't start any racial shit) they consisted of romans,greeks, celts,varios germanic tribes, huns etc. They based their identeties on being in one warband/migrating group under a common king. When the setteld in the west they these groups themself mixed with the roman provincal population to a different degree. Alot in Iberia, only a bit in italy

You have to remember that the tribes invading the Roman Empire were relatively small, we're talking at most tens of thousands of people here, women, children and the elderly included.

Not enough to dramatically change anything: the genetics of modern French people differ very little from the Gauls. The invading tribes settled, quickly intermarried with the locals, and usually adopted their culture, religion and language. The ruling class was indeed genetically Germanic, but became quickly culturally Gallo-Roman. Though of course adding some of their Frankish culture in the mix. And then they also intermarried with the local elites.

The same thing happened in Spain, and in Italy. For example in Italy we can study Lombard tombs to see the evolution of culture: in a few generations they go from classic Germanic style tombs, to Germanic tombs with Roman/Italian, Christian decorations, to just Roman tombs with Germanic names engraved on them.

It's a pattern you can see pretty much every time "barbarians" invade a settled people, from the Slavs in the Balkans, to the Mongols in China, to the Arabs in the Middle East and North Africa.

Here you go.

This is great info, thanks!

One thing though, why is the population of the Balkans Slavic, then?

What time period is this?

Modern times.

Cheers. You don't happen to have one of these for Spain or Italy, do you?

You seriously can't tell that's a completely bullshit map?

No I don't know anything about maps... What makes it look bullshit?

They do have Slavic ancestry, more than, say Spaniards have Germanic ancestry, probably because after centuries of warfare and raiding the entire region was greatly depopulated. But, genetically speaking, they are not really Slavs, though they do differ from ancient Illyrians/Thracians/Other ancient Balkan peoples.

However, while the Slavs quickly converted to Christianity, the people of the Balkans did adopt the culture of their conquerors to a greater degree than others, and they did adopt Slavic language, instead of the Slavs adopting the Latin or Greek language. I remember hearing about pottery found in modern Croatia from around the time of the Slavic invasions. They start having Slavic decorations on them, indicating that even the people of the cities started adopting some aspects of Slavic culture.

If I had to guess, I'd say the fact that there was less immediate intermarriage played a role in that. And Rome had fallen for hundreds of years, the Byzantines were a shell of their former self, so Roman culture might have been less the hegemony, less something to emulate. But that's just a guess.

As always in these events, it was merely the ruling class (and a small percentage of lower rankiing settlers) that composed the post-Roman kingdoms. It was the same in Anglo-Saxon England, where a few tens of thousands settled in an area of more than a million Celtic peoples. It was the same in Spain where a hundred thousand Suebes, Goths, Vandals, Alans and others settled amongst several million Romano-Hispanics, who were themselves not culturally homogeneous. The Franks (not Goths) who ruled what became Frankia were a minority in their own kingdom, as it pretty much always is.

This guy has it right. The local prestigious language and culture usually overwhelms the "invaders". Britain and a few other places are actually pretty exceptional in that respect.

Goths and Vandals got SLAV'd though

>Vandals
>run from Huns
>too stupid to cross a river
>river freezes over and keep running west
>only stop when they reach an ocean
>see a Roman build a boat once and suddenly are expert sailors
>Roman governor of North Africa is fearful of rumors of civil war and invites Vandals to help him out in North Africa
>governor finds out the rumors were all fabricated and tells the Vandals to fuck off right as they get done finishing crossing into Africa
>Vandals conquer North Africa since they were already there
>create a bunch of Germans create an Arian theocracy in North Africa
>remain the most significant naval power in the Mediterranean for centuries
Fucking crazy, desu.

>Germans

>"""Proto-Slavic"""
>Haploautism

Vandals and Goths were Gotlanders. Maybe they had some Baltic admix and pre-Baltic Poland native admix but Slavs have nothing to do with East Germanics.

>Slavs have nothing to do with East Germanics.
But they do.

Do we have any source that any of these guys in Spain or northafrica or even their grandparents marched from skandinavia down there? And don't Come up with trustworthy sources like the gethica or other originstories from 5/6th century

Wrong. There's no Slavic influence in Gothic or Gothic in Slavic. There was no more interaction than between Irish and Goths.

The fact that they were Goths/Vandals is enough proof.

Baltic is rightful German clay.

Ok so we have goths first appearing between crimea and the roman border at the blacksea these people march to Spain. What exactly makes these people now gotlanders?
Same goes with Vandals I think they first appeared somewhere around the elbe

>>Roman governor of North Africa is fearful of rumors of civil war and invites Vandals to help him out in North Africa

Actually said governor was Bonifacius, who was a power hungry scumbag who eventually crossed to Italy with his armies and died, leaving Africa defenceless against the Vandals he'd stupidly invited in.

Proto-Germanic, the common ancestor of all Germanic languages isn't very old only about 2500 years or so. East Germanics had to originate very close to the North Germanic branch so they were not from Central Asia or wherever Slavocentrists want them to be from.
Finnish is known to contain Gothic loans so Goths being Gotlanders seems like the only realistic option.
No doubt that these Gotlanders mixed with Lusatian locals in Poland but these locals weren't Slavic. They may have been Celts.

They had moved south and east towards the Pontus Euxine.

Pretty sure there was some dude in Rome spreading rumors of civil war, which led to the Governor to freak out. Eventually the dude spreading rumors was found out. I don't remember names.

Yeah I know these theories. They are as old as, like I said 5/6th century Roman historiography but do we have any sources for that?
About them not being homogene groups we don't have to talk, that's obvious.

>George Montandon is rong cuz I said so!!

Veeky Forums tier debate

Don't mix genetics with language.

Ok so quick question, if I am from England my ancestry is most likely celtic, not Anglo Saxon?

Neither. Your ancestry is primarily paleolithic British tribes from before either the Celtic or Anglo-Saxon invasions.

inb4 haploautism maps conflating male line descent with full genetic ancestry. 'cause, you know, we carry ALL the genes from the dad, right?

Well I'm half German at least.

Actually he would be heavily Anglo-Saxon if from the east of England and heavily Celtic if from the west.

>hurr genetic science is lies we wuz cavemongs and shit

they abandoned most of their germanic roots and started to speak latin

Yeah I'm skeptical because I look Germanic as fuck.

Wrong. This myth has been debunked for decades. The Anglo-Saxons did not genocide the local Britons who lived in eastern Britain.

Culture is not genetics you dense tard.

>myth

nature.com/articles/ncomms10326

>the Welsh were most consistently ranked as highly identical by state, followed by Irish and Scottish scores, a result strongly supporting an origin within the British Isles for this Roman sample majority. Interestingly, the modern English sample was ranked only ninth for IBS to the Romans from York, at a level similar to German, Norwegian, Orcadian and Basque samples.

>That this could have been, in some part, due to population influx associated with the Anglo-Saxon migrations is suggested by the different genetic signal of the later Anglo-Saxon genome. Iron-Age, Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Viking and other migrations have all been proposed as contributors to the genetic structure in modern United Kingdom34.

>Gothic in Slavic
There are tons of Gothic loanwords in Slavic.

Redpill me on the Crimean Goths

The only Germanic parts of France are Alsace-Moselle and a part of Flanders, and even there most people no longer speak the dialect. The only Celtic part of France is Brittany, and the same principle applies.

The whole map is just complete and utter random nonsense.