I know that several Chinese post on this board, so I want to ask you guys something: where does your "China has 5000 years of history" meme come from?
If we define "prehistory" as anything prior to the invention of writing, then Chinese history begins around 1500 BC since that's when Chinese writing (in the form of oracle bones) first appeared. That means Chinese has roughly 3500 years of history.
However if we go by traditional Chinese historiography which defines Chinese history as beginning with the Xia Dynasty (even though there's no firm proof yet that the Xia Dynasty existed), then the Xia Dynasty began in 2070 BC according to the Xia–Shang–Zhou Chronology Project that was commissioned by the PRC. That's still only roughly 4100 years of history though.
So where does this "5000 years" figure come from? Did you just decide to round up?
Your picture explains why, Sima Qian made that claim.
My parents told me it was anywhere from 2000 - 4000 years. I'd honestly put it at ~3000. Westerners like to poke fun at Chinese for saying 5000 years of history but I've never heard it when growing up. Maybe some of the hardline nationalists believe it.
Jack Jackson
>Westerners like to poke fun at Chinese for saying 5000 years of history but I've never heard it when growing up.
We poke fun at it because any foreigner who has lived in China could tell you that they've had Chinese matter-of-factly tell them "China has 5000 years of history" numerous times. And since I'm American, Chinese usually tell me this in a way that implies US history is pathetic for only being 240 years old.
Luis Torres
A S I A N M A S C U L I N I T Y
WE WUZ QINGZ N SHIT
Evan Bell
white boy,
looks like your girl is wanting to get QINGED
Robert Thomas
>Sima Qian made that claim. Wouldn't it then be 7000 years of history now?
Logan Long
American history goes all the way back to Sumer.
Robert Taylor
Meh, the only history that matter is that which can be proven by carbon dating non-written/art objects and connecting them to understand what life was like at that time.
Using any written/art, even if it is dated to the correct assumed time, is like believing in a religion. There is too much unknown about the documents for them to be used as "history", such as: >who wrote/drew/paint/sculpted it? >why did they? >where are the other similar documents? >why did this one survive and the others didn't? >how many people back then were even doing this (writing,art,etc)?
People need to consider that historic documents are just as susceptible to propaganda agenda's as anything made in the modern age. Maybe even more so because of the limited amount of people who could actually write and read during that time.
Julian Johnson
That sounds more like insecure nationalism than anything. Letting that influence your view is like letting /pol/ or 2ch inform on the average American or Japanese.
Sorry, bad wording. I meant his claim would mean that China has 5000 years of history.
Jayden Phillips
Well people tend to remember round numbers. Jews also say that they have a 5,000 year old history when in fact it's about 3,200 and that the exile was 2,000 years when it was 1,878 if you count from the destruction of temple v2, 1,812 if you count from the end of Jewish Roman wars and 852 if you count it from the really final big depopulation of jews from the area during the first crusade. German reich was also not a thousand years old but only 844 etc. There are probably more examples.
Jeremiah Hughes
>That sounds more like insecure nationalism than anything. Letting that influence your view is like letting /pol/ or 2ch inform on the average American or Japanese
Fair enough. However, I still say that foreigners have a right to poke fun at the phrase "China has 5000 years of history" when most laowai have lost count of how many times they've heard it from Chinese in person. It's like how huehuehue became a meme after people heard it so many times from Brazilians online.
Andrew Clark
True but I think it would make more sense for Chinese to say 4000 rather than 5000 since that's closer to when the Xia Dynasty was supposedly founded, and closer to when writing was invented in China.
Josiah Wood
>no evidence of Xia
Might want to do a google search. They found something interesting.
>where does your "China has 5000 years of history" meme come from?
The early Chinese historians guesstimated based upon the foundation myths that China's history began about in 2700 BC.
Recent archaeology shows that is wrong, but the myth continues among some of the uneducated and nationalists.
Nowadays most of the 5,000 year history meme is driven by orientalists and not Chinese. Don't take a minority as representing the mainstream view.
Andrew Allen
>Might want to do a google search. They found something interesting.
If you're talking about the evidence of a large flood that was recently found, I'm well aware. That still isn't definitive proof that Yu the Great and the Xia actually existed. All we can say at this point is that there may have been an actual flood that later inspired the Yu the Great story.
>Nowadays most of the 5,000 year history meme is driven by orientalists and not Chinese. Don't take a minority as representing the mainstream view.
Again, this phrase is something I have only heard from Chinese, whether in person or in Chinese media. And you could ask any laowai who has lived in mainland China, and they would tell you they have heard this phrase from Chinese numerous times.
Blake Jones
>All we can say at this point is that there may have been an actual flood that later inspired the Yu the Great story. >later inspired >hurdur they remembered this one flood 1000 years later
Except that the flood was stopped about 2 years later by the rocks crumbling and damming its path again. Hence the story.
It most likely confirms some type of cultural connections in China going back to 2000 BC.
Bentley Jackson
>Again, this phrase is something I have only heard from Chinese, whether in person or in Chinese media. Anecdotes are anecdotes.
>And you could ask any laowai who has lived in mainland China, and they would tell you they have heard this phrase from Chinese numerous times. That doesn't seem like a verifiable thing. Your anecdotes are biased and based upon a minority experience, and most likely a personal grudge against Chinese. With that concluded, I am are done here.
Isaac Murphy
>>hurdur they remembered this one flood 1000 years later
It's not exactly that they "remembered" the flood, just that the memory of the flood got passed down but distorted in the form of a flood myth. It's also been speculated that the reason why most cultures have flood myths is due to humans having to escape rising sea levels at the end of the last ice age. China would just be unique in that their flood myth came from a river flood rather than rising sea levels.
Never heard of Westerners saying "5000 years" before this, I stand corrected.
>Your anecdotes are biased and based upon a minority experience, and most likely a personal grudge against Chinese.
Yup, you got me. I'm only saying this cause I have a personal grudge against Chinese. It's impossible that Chinese might say this phrase to foreigners a lot. Are you just triggered whenever anyone says something critical about China?
Nathaniel Wood
The general location of the flood and general time period are quite accurate and align up with the myth. That's why it is so important.
No group passes down a tradition with the generally correct location and date of the event for 1000 years. I could understand a couple hundred years, but that would put the start of Chinese history around 2000-1900 BC.
At least read what the huge team of researchers (Westerners included) concluded based upon the findings.
Julian Brown
>I'm only saying this cause I have a personal grudge against Chinese. It's impossible that Chinese might say this phrase to foreigners a lot.
Now based upon my own anecdotes, /pol/ and those who browse it use this criticism against Chinese all the time. Furthermore, you continue to misuse laowai in an english conversation like it somehow is a meaningful term.
In my experience, that combined with the fact you come here to post this and sarcastically are an asshole in OP, tells me that you are butthurt by what a few Chinese say.
>Are you just triggered whenever anyone says something critical about China? I have only provided factual information and pointed out a few of your logical fallcies and perception biases. >critical of china I've already said that only orientalists and nationalists make the 5000 year claim. Thanks for strawmanning me.
Benjamin Morales
>The general location of the flood and general time period are quite accurate and align up with the myth. That's why it is so important. No group passes down a tradition with the generally correct location and date of the event for 1000 years.
That's a good point, I'll take a look at the paper then
Lucas Hernandez
Have a good day.
There's also more evidence of "Chinese civilization" around that time. The main question is if it aligns with the mythological Xia. As far as we can tell, there's not enough evidence to claim either way.
Connor Gray
I thought it was 10,000 years
Ryder Allen
>where does your "China has 5000 years of history" meme come from? Chinese sage kings were accepted as historical figures in the past.
Probably started during the Republican era(same with the Huaxia meme).
Hudson Gomez
>that combined with the fact you come here to post this and sarcastically are an asshole in OP, tells me that you are butthurt by what a few Chinese say.
I wasn't trying to be a sarcastic in my OP. All I was trying to do was ask where this "5000 years" figure comes from, since it's a figure I've heard not only in person, but also in Chinese media. You also mocked my one reply with "hurdur". You're evidently the type of person who sees ulterior motives in everyone and allows /pol/tards to get to them. Good luck getting anyone to appreciate China if all you're going to do is get butthurt if they make any sort of generalization about China, no matter how innocent.
Jackson Lopez
China only has "5000 years of history" in the same way modern Iraq is a continuation of ancient Sumeria or Italy is the Roman Empire. The various "dynasties" that have ruled the general geographical area of modern China had different religions, cultures, philosophies and ethnicities. If they are all the same continuous civilization then Ethiopia can claim to have an unbroken culture from Lucy the Australopithecine.
Austin Peterson
Came here to say this.
Easton Rodriguez
Weirdly enough I usually hear it as "4000 years" in anime and manga, I guess they use a different reference point.
Angel Flores
Ethnicities? Really?
You think that the ancient chinese suddenly disappered and new chinese came out of nowhere to replace them?
