Why isn't Stoicism more popular among dissatisfied modern Westerners looking for meaning? Pros include:
>strong ethical-code
>An acceptance of God without having to actually do anything to appease him besides live a life appropriate to your station
>A rejection of hedonism, vanity, and endless desire for more materials which is a staple of the modern west
>Easy to understand. The Enchiridion is free online or 10$ on Amazon.
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Romans tried stoicism once
The rich was too stoically discipline to care about the poor and their problems.
The poor was also too stoically discipline to care about their problems.
it continued until the problems was to bad that by the time they stopped being stoic it was already too late and they lost their republic.
Stoicism become popular during the empire era.
>Why isn't Stoicism more popular among dissatisfied modern Westerners looking for meaning
Because Stoicism causes them to accept their dissatisfaction and just plotter on doing whatever as long as it isn't hedonistic or vain. It's a self-eradicating train of thought because by adopting it you stop trying to change things, but accept them as they are.
Stoicism is directly antagonized by modern consumer culture, and the majority of people cannot give up their stuff even if it leads to their own happiness.
>It's a self-eradicating train of thought because by adopting it you stop trying to change things, but accept them as they are.
It depends what you mean by "change things." If you mean change things like change the world 99.99% of people can never change anything. Part of stoicisms Beauty is the acceptance of this fact. Inb4 "defeatist" because it's not defeatist to accept reality.
If you mean change like "change in your own life" stoicism does not prevent or discourage you to avoid change when it's healthy. It mearly advises you to avoid the rat races in life as you'll be better off. If you are attempting something big, you need to treat it as though your in the olympics and give it everything you got.
>as long as it isn't hedonistic or vain
>in 2016 and forward
I could never EVER see this becoming popular the way things look now
It sounds similar to some Buddhist schools of thought
it's a misconception that stoicism is about conformity. They urge an active participation in the bettering of society or whatever is that you think you should fight for. Not letting bad circumstances affect your thoughts and happyness does not mean you can't try to change them.
It is powerfull, after reorganizing my thinking using their teachings i feel more happy, mature, manly, it's a life hack.
I'm not saying that stoicism tries to 'change society' or not, but stoicism is not internally motivated to spread. Look at ideologies like capitalism, communism, religions like Islam or Christianity, even political parties or nationalities. They all struggle with each other for dominance because in the end they think they are right and if the external other accepts it then the world will be a better place.
Stoicism is about internally accepting stoicism. For some this includes telling someone else about stoicism, but even then there's no need to go up to someone and say "man this stoicism is so much better than what you've got going on."
Those that accept stoicism as a philosophy that is enhancing of the quality of life are pretty much done. They've accepted it, that's all there is to it. A small section of (intellectual) people will keep it alive, no doubt, but not in a way that it will ever become popular.
That isn't a coincidence.
/roman/ general
so guys if i you want to harness the full powers of roman stoic male vitality
>learn a ead language
>suppress all your feelings
>get bowlcut
>work out nude
>don't drink water, drink watered down wine
>have orgies
>show up at town council meeting and harass the representatives
>It's a self-eradicating train of thought because by adopting it you stop trying to change things, but accept them as they are.
WRONG.
my bewilderment stems from the fact that so many westerners turn to Buddhism when Stoicism would be so easier for them to grasp, with the same results.
Stoics have stood up to tyrants
Stoicism became popular in the same kind of large, multiethnic population like the United States has now. I don't think stoics will ever go door to door like mormons but thanks to the internet and an increasing number of young people looking for alternatives to the system they inhabit stoicism is ripe for a rebirth.
>Because Stoicism causes them to accept their dissatisfaction and just plotter on doing whatever
You could try having some level of knowledge on the subject before posting.
>le the rich should care about the poor meme
in the current year if you aren't wealthy, you did it wrong
>>strong ethical-code
What is the Stoic ethical-code?
This.
Stoicism is buddhism without the bullshit.
Everyone should read a little Epicurus, great philosophy. Very practical and wise.
Just post the Enchiridion here. It's only a 10 minute read.
1. Some things are in our control and others not. Things in our control are opinion, pursuit, desire, aversion, and, in a word, whatever are our own actions. Things not in our control are body, property, reputation, command, and, in one word, whatever are not our own actions.
The things in our control are by nature free, unrestrained, unhindered; but those not in our control are weak, slavish, restrained, belonging to others. Remember, then, that if you suppose that things which are slavish by nature are also free, and that what belongs to others is your own, then you will be hindered. You will lament, you will be disturbed, and you will find fault both with gods and men. But if you suppose that only to be your own which is your own, and what belongs to others such as it really is, then no one will ever compel you or restrain you. Further, you will find fault with no one or accuse no one. You will do nothing against your will. No one will hurt you, you will have no enemies, and you not be harmed.
Aiming therefore at such great things, remember that you must not allow yourself to be carried, even with a slight tendency, towards the attainment of lesser things. Instead, you must entirely quit some things and for the present postpone the rest. But if you would both have these great things, along with power and riches, then you will not gain even the latter, because you aim at the former too: but you will absolutely fail of the former, by which alone happiness and freedom are achieved.
Work, therefore to be able to say to every harsh appearance, "You are but an appearance, and not absolutely the thing you appear to be." And then examine it by those rules which you have, and first, and chiefly, by this: whether it concerns the things which are in our own control, or those which are not; and, if it concerns anything not in our control, be prepared to say that it is nothing to you.
classics.mit.edu
6. Don't be prideful with any excellence that is not your own. If a horse should be prideful and say, " I am handsome," it would be supportable. But when you are prideful, and say, " I have a handsome horse," know that you are proud of what is, in fact, only the good of the horse. What, then, is your own? Only your reaction to the appearances of things. Thus, when you behave conformably to nature in reaction to how things appear, you will be proud with reason; for you will take pride in some good of your own.
too bad this is technicaly false and we hardly even controll our actions let alone our desires
I think it is just always doing the morally correct thing. It's not air-tight, but basically don't be a scumbag, and don't be a pussy.
3. With regard to whatever objects give you delight, are useful, or are deeply loved, remember to tell yourself of what general nature they are, beginning from the most insignificant things. If, for example, you are fond of a specific ceramic cup, remind yourself that it is only ceramic cups in general of which you are fond. Then, if it breaks, you will not be disturbed. If you kiss your child, or your wife, say that you only kiss things which are human, and thus you will not be disturbed if either of them dies.
>4. When you are going about any action, remind yourself what nature the action is. If you are going to bathe, picture to yourself the things which usually happen in the bath: some people splash the water, some push, some use abusive language, and others steal. Thus you will more safely go about this action if you say to yourself, "I will now go bathe, and keep my own mind in a state conformable to nature." And in the same manner with regard to every other action. For thus, if any hindrance arises in bathing, you will have it ready to say, "It was not only to bathe that I desired, but to keep my mind in a state conformable to nature; and I will not keep it if I am bothered at things that happen.
hold the phone. did he just say don't get mad if some cuck robs you?
t. shameless hedonist
no, he's saying be comfortable with stoically beating the crap out of the cuck who robs you, just don't let them make you angry
>5. Men are disturbed, not by things, but by the principles and notions which they form concerning things. Death, for instance, is not terrible, else it would have appeared so to Socrates. But the terror consists in our notion of death that it is terrible. When therefore we are hindered, or disturbed, or grieved, let us never attribute it to others, but to ourselves; that is, to our own principles. An uninstructed person will lay the fault of his own bad condition upon others. Someone just starting instruction will lay the fault on himself. Some who is perfectly instructed will place blame neither on others nor on himself.
>8. Don't demand that things happen as you wish, but wish that they happen as they do happen, and you will go on well.
>13. If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid with regard to external things. Don't wish to be thought to know anything; and even if you appear to be somebody important to others, distrust yourself. For, it is difficult to both keep your faculty of choice in a state conformable to nature, and at the same time acquire external things. But while you are careful about the one, you must of necessity neglect the other.
Because hedonism has a much better record of getting the rich to care about the poor or the poor to care about their own station?
thats nice and all, but it changes nothing
most humans occur day in day out in repeat-pattern, most reactions depend on situation and conditions and are practicaly impossible to change or avoid, most behavior happens without any real decision, even making a decision is usualy just more repetitive pattern
everione realises this during their life, its impossible to miss, some people just lie about it, which again is just more repetitive pattern behavior
i wouldnt say the solution is to be principled or lay blame not here but there, the only way out realy is to kill oneself, othervise ones life just keeps on happening, thought, word, action, state after state, situation after situation, till the organs fail and the individual body falls apart - but the catch there is that sucide is also conditioned behavior and except for extreme cases it is impossible for the organism to perform
>Things in our control are opinion, pursuit, desire, aversion,
all false. you do not control what you dislike and you do not even control the change of your tastes and when you encounter what you dislike, you cannot even get rid of it by will.
same thing for opinions, you do not control them and they change years after years
>most humans occur day in day out in repeat-pattern, most reactions depend on situation and conditions and are practicaly impossible to change or avoid, most behavior happens without any real decision, even making a decision is usualy just more repetitive pattern
You don't have to be most humans, that's the point of self-improvement.
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but you are most humans, changing is practicaly impossible, people mature and develop over time, or they devolve and deteriorate, this is a organic process, each stage is a catch 22 of its own, it all happens as it happens, you cant actualy change anithing in the shortrun, it takes time and selfobservation and developing selfdiscipline and even a slight marginal degree of real controll, and control is fucked up cause its mostly a illusion, and turning ones observations and conclusions into actual behavior change trough controled action is often beyond capacity, it takes pain and lack and loss and frustration and taking every form of shit for years on end untill the organism develops even the basic capacity of changing pattern, and even then it takes will and motivation, and motivation is a fucked up thing in itself since it too is contingent to a fault and almost completely out of conscious control, till then youre just stuck like a observer trapped in a tran going off a cliff, you know exactly whats wrong, you just cant stop any of it
rationality does not help much, it just makes you more conscious of what a biochemical hell youre living in
this is reality, it is important
People do seek to practice Stoicism even without knowing it, they call it "coming to terms" with things. Because it has become so generalized it lacks the extra punch that exotic doctrines like Buddhism have.
youre retarded. dont post about things you havent read up on.
>but you are most humans, changing is practicaly impossible
muh you are a slave to your desires and it is impossible to change anything about you, people just stay stationary their entire lives meme
please stop
yes you do
you dont stay stationary, you get driven around like youre on tracks or on a leash, or a fucking puppet in stop motion, youre not a 'slave to your desires' cause your desires themselves are just as contingent, all of you is contingent
intrinsicaly motivated change is extremely dificult, practicaly impossible, most cases life changes you, the reality you live forms you from moment to moment, theres hardly any you that gets into it, most of you is a biproduct, there are very few things you can actualy control, your own conscious will and rational decisions are almost irrelevant in the matter, realy they are a sort of service system facilitating the irrational behavior trough practical logic and useful explanations, the brain will always tell you it is what you want, it is your will, your choice, your control, its a lie, its all lies, outside the purely practical how-to stuff there is hardly anything else inside your mind but misconceptions and lies, one way or another you just strive for less ego-discomfort, one way or another youre just being avoidant or basicaly masturbating, either literaly or in some other way of self-indulging, and this goes for painfull, awkward and humiliating experiences too, maybe even more so
no you dont
you might be able to disregard it but you dont controll it, not in the moment they occur, and they only get modified trough time and experience
>I don't understand Stoicism: the post
It's about accepting only the things that aren't in your control.
>ITT: Stoicucks
Let me teach you all bout the "The Secret". You see, in quantum mechanics...so yeah, you manifest your future.
Name 3 societies, 4 civilizations and 2 communities where the rich care about the poor.
This actually sounds like an awesome way to live
Don't care if your cup breaks of your own fault. Smash any fucker who tries to steal your cup and family
How i see it
All sounds pretty agreeable, especially the bowlcut. I just remembered that the happiest times in my life were when I had a bowlcut, brb
thing is 'the secret' is a dumbed down version of how life actualy works, besides the quantum bullshit and the new age feelgood selfsugestion magic, your basic internal motives and desires actualy do manifest as your future, its just that its all impersonal shit perpetuating impersonal shit and if the 'motivational speaker' fucks that write that selfhelp crap told it like it is no newager idiot would buy it, since the truth is there is no way to avoid ruining your life and that of others, what you are inside is allready total shit and it will manifest from the inside-out, only way out of it is to not pursue what you want, not do what you feel like, to deny oneself constantly till all the parts of you that drive your behavior die - which in turn is a even more catastrophic way of completely ruining your life - or become transmuted trough suffering and stress
realy the only way it could work is if one lived in a society based on discipline and impersonal authority
Stoic reporting in
Stoicism in its modern iteration is the Mindfulness movement. They don't call it Stoicism any more because nobody hangs out at the stoa these days.
Among the many things that they have in common is being a late period emergence, coming of age in the spiritual winter of a society and being a philosophy primarily interested in the here-and-now, eschewing itself of a galvanizing literary tradition, thereby becoming deprived of spiritual significance. It is a reflection on a society which has exhausted itself culturally, and is preparing itself mentally for the coming sunset.
And of course, being something easily commercialized, packaged, and sold to bored wealthy men who afford themselves no luxury except the luxury of restraint.
>basically asking something like why aren't people converting to Islam when Allah is the one true god
I don't know user... Perhaps stupidity?
alri ozzy spongleman
What are some essential Stoic Veeky Forums?
>basically asking something like why aren't people converting to Islam when Allah is the one true god
Or it's like wondering why a philosophical system which is relevant to modern life hasn't picked up more steam?
Meditations and letters from a stoic
cause rednecks are to stupid
and hipsters wont give up their luxury bikes.
fuck why cant you see this!
The Epistles / Letters, by Seneca the Younger
Discourses, by Epictetus
The Enchiridion, by Epictetus
The Meditations, by Marcus Aurelius
These are the go-tos. There's something to be said about how these come from the Late/last Stoics, post apogee of Rome. Reading order is backwards, that is, for maximal impact, start with the Meditations, then the Enchiridion, so on and so forth
>in one word, whatever are not our own actions.
what word did they have which meant this?
only if you fail at being a good stoic
I'm in.
>"When you do anything from a clear judgment that it ought to be done, never shun the being seen to do it, even though the world should make a wrong supposition about it; for, if you don't act right, shun the action itself; but, if you do, why are you afraid of those who censure you wrongly?"
This is what I tell myself every time I buy toilet paper
It isn't surprising at all. I'm not particularly educated about Buddhism, but I know a little bit. These are the factors I would ascribe to Buddhism's popularity with Westerners.
>It's often misinterpreted as a "secular" religion, despite sharing many of the foundational beliefs of other religions: overarching cosmic order, ancestor worship, and permanence of actions beyond mortal life.
You don't even need to go into Buddhist allegories, a lot of of which amount to, "And then I died and hung out with the Buddha Shaka," or, "And then I chanted the sutras and I stopped burning to death."
>Religion is more popular and accessible than philosophy as a heuristic for moral living. Religion also has a communal element. I don't really need to detail this.
>Attraction to the "mysticism" of East Asian and - to a lesser degree - Southeast Asian cultures. You know, weeaboos.
A lot of people don't consider things like reincarnation, the mythology, or Buddhism's unsavory role in relatively recent history (The Empire of Japan) when they think of it. They just think about balance, peace, etc.
>Yes you do
All of those concepts are controlled on some level by the intuitive functions of the brain. It literally isn't in your control, as much as the dilation of your pupils is in control.
What purpose does it offer? Just do my job?
Why would you need a purpose?
>strong ethical-code
>A rejection of hedonism, vanity, and endless desire for more materials which is a staple of the modern west
goes against our culture
Not really, our culture is based around contrarianism and spite, what better way to spite the hedonists than forming a stoic movement?
I dont understand why they are "competing". You can use stoic philosophy to eliminate anxiety and improve your epicurean pleasure.
Its Christianity without the fanaticism.
I find it disturbing that this predicts socialism as the final dream of a dying culture.
>Doing the morally right thing
amazing answer. I'm astounded
>it's Christianity but boring
ftfy
Yeah, all those witch hunts and crusades really rev my motor. Get some of that good clean righteous violence, nowaimsaiyin?
Live a good life and strive to be a moral example