ITT:People that fucked up everything

>ancapism

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Reminder that this is paranoid fantasy and in real life silicon valley is increasingly pushing UBI

This motherfucker right here.

>UBI
Is this a tech thing or are you referring to universal basic income?
Because if the latter, of course they are. Only moronic ancaps could forget that their businesses only have value when there's a market for their product.
Which there wouldn't be in a world where everyone is either a bum or a lord. What was this called, Ford's Paradox?

You must have posted the wrong picture OP. Because the image you posted contains the second greatest guy who ever lived.

>pay people to buy your stuff
>this is what non economists actually believe
Driving up demand through stimulus is not the same as literally giving them the same amount as money as they end up spending.

>pay people to buy your stuff
Oh no it's not you. It's the government taking your money away and giving it to other people so you won't pointlessly hoard it.
We're on a history board, yet somehow people don't remember a few brilliantly clear examples of what happens when you concentrate all business in the hand of the few and leave masses of unemployed people starving in their slums while slaves toil.

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They suffer for it. That doesn't meant capitalist with robots can't just do commerce with other robot owning capitalists. Are you going to start paying robots wages so they can drive up consumer demand too?

>have literally everything you need and want, and more, produced for you
>still doing business
wut

You do realize that industrial wealth is a product of scale right? You won't be rich enough of a market to warrant robot factories if your only customers are the few other robot barons.
>They suffer for it.
Yes, and political upheaval happens and tons of rich people get slaughtered and their wealth stolen.

Waggling Willy and Addie H

Just because you own a factory that requires no human workforce doesn't mean you can produce every kind of widget. You wouldn't necessarily own a factory that could efficiently make you the newest cutting edge computer, because you'd have no economies of scale if you're making just one. Not to mention you'd need raw materials.

You're somehow assuming production can't shift to a new equilibrium. Rich robot barons own robots, there's no need to warrant anything except investing in that which gives the highest ROI and satiating your hedonistic desires. And these rich people would have loyal robot supersoldiers.

The implication of this sort of automation people dream of is that you CAN produce literally everything you need.

Your mistake is believing you'll arrive to such a society before the plebs rebel. Hell forget the plebs, before the what remains of the human management rebels.
Why are ancaps so delusional?

Human labor gets phased out before that happens.

Proles are already wagecucks who suck the dicks of their beloved job creators. Just human management? Why would you give human management weaponized robots to rebel against you? What are they going to do in the face of your giant loyal robot army?

Being wagecucks is miles better than being unemployed and starving in the streets. And did you read my post? You'll never reach the point where you're the one holding the reins of the robot army. The moment you try to automatize their mainteinance crew is the moment they decide their last workday is the day the take over all your assets.

>Human labor gets phased out before that happens.
I'm still not seeing your point. Can you explain it clearly in one post?

(((Russian)))

>The moment you try to automatize their mainteinance crew is the moment they decide their last workday is the day the take over all your assets.
They don't have control over the robot's security. Do you understand how coups happen? By taking over the army. You don't get just a bunch of courtiers who decide to overthrow the king by themselves, and then fight his palace guard and army by themselves. And then you set up a failsafe, if you die, your loyal robot army will kill everyone. How exactly do these maintenance crews take all your assets?

Is it really that hard to understand? There becomes a point where robots have lower costs than the equivalent human labor, creating a glut of labor, because people don't have kids to meet demands for labor, they have kids to have kids. This will drive down employment and living conditions. As technology progresses, human labor is phased out, and it becomes robots making robots and other commodities, but you will still need to trade. All this happens before your fantasy utopia of personally owning robots that could make anything you could possibly want.

>but you will still need to trade
why the fuck would this happen?

>They don't have control over the robot's security
I'm supposed to believe the rich guy paying for everything does? Does he know the internal software of the robots? Does he know how they actually work? The IT guy controls the robots

>They don't have control over the robot's security.
How do they work then? They're the mainteinance crew, they need access to do anything. And they know the system better than you do, they'll have the robots chasing your ass before you can say "you're fired".
They don't even need to turn the robots, they just need to sabotage them into inactivity. Who's gonna defend you? You've fired anyone else already.

>why the fuck would this happen?
Because of economies of scale. Even if you're a multi-millionaire and own a widget factory, you can be more efficient specializing in one kind of widget and trading it for other specialized widgets than trying to make every widget you'd consume yourself. It's how you maximize value. It would take far more than your entire net worth to build a factory to produce a single gaming PC.

>I'm supposed to believe the rich guy paying for everything does?
If you were the rich guy, you'd set it up that way.

>Does he know the internal software of the robots?
His security clearance is required.

>Does he know how they actually work?
He doesn't need to.

>The IT guy controls the robots
The point of robots is they don't need someone to control them.

>How do they work then?
By doing what robots do.

>They're the mainteinance crew, they need access to do anything.
They don't get unlimited access.

>And they know the system better than you do
But that doesn't mean they can break the encryption based on your password, biometrics, keys, whatever. Encryption is very strong.

> they'll have the robots chasing your ass before you can say "you're fired".
No they won't. Do you even know how robot work?

>They don't even need to turn the robots, they just need to sabotage them into inactivity.
That's why you don't give one guy access to all parts of all of your robots and have failsafes.

>Who's gonna defend you?
The unmolested robots.

You guys are very naive. Worst comes to worse, the robot owner's son is sent to college to study computer science, and gives robots to the guy who can eliminate his own job.

>Even if you're a multi-millionaire and own a widget factory, you can be more efficient specializing in one kind of widget and trading it for other specialized widgets than trying to make every widget you'd consume yourself. It's how you maximize value. It would take far more than your entire net worth to build a factory to produce a single gaming PC.
That doesn't mean it's impossible, especially since it's a very desirable goal

>If you were the rich guy, you'd set it up that way.
How? Learn everything about the robot's tech?

>His security clearance is required.
>

>He doesn't need to.
But the IT guy does. And the IT guy doesn't make as much money as he does. And the IT guy wants to make as much money as he does. And the IT guy has an easy way of doing that. Why? Because the IT guy has security clearance to the robot army.

>The point of robots is they don't need someone to control them.
How exactly does that work? Any software can be hacked, and every software has bugs.

>They don't get unlimited access.
They just need enough access to go past the robot's physical protections user. All access is gonna be enough access to disable them, which is really the only thing they need to do. A fucking nail within the robot's armor is gonna mean your death.
Dude you're the naive one. Your self-sufficiency fantasies are just that, fantasies. We ALREADY have plenty of political support for all kinds of welfare in the west, and we're nowhere near human labour becoming outdated.
Do you honestly think that somehow the situation is gonna become progressively worse without not only no sort of reaction whatsoever, but even a regression of the social state? Scratch naivete, this is straight delusion.

>That doesn't mean it's impossible, especially since it's a very desirable goal
The point being that there is a phase which is post-labor but requires trade. Why is that so difficult for you co comprehend?

>How? Learn everything about the robot's tech?
You don't need to know about everything, neither do the people working for you. Robots and programming in general often require large teams of specialists who have specialized jobs.

>
>i have no response

>But the IT guy does. And the IT guy doesn't make as much money as he does. And the IT guy wants to make as much money as he does. And the IT guy has an easy way of doing that. Why? Because the IT guy has security clearance to the robot army.
No, he does not. He has limited access. Your entire argument lies on not understanding how the real world tech industry works, because the most experience you've had with computers is calling up the IT guy and giving him your password so he can remove a virus. And maybe in this brave new world, a considerable amount of the robot owners are people who got rich from the tech boom and understand computers themselves.

>How exactly does that work? Any software can be hacked, and every software has bugs.
And? Can he hack or exploit enough to ensure his own safety, or can he be shut down and killed before he can accomplish anything with his hack?

>They just need enough access to go past the robot's physical protections user. All access is gonna be enough access to disable them, which is really the only thing they need to do. A fucking nail within the robot's armor is gonna mean your death.
How is he going to sabotage your entire robot army at one time? How is he going to get around the other security measures like cameras to watch him to see if he fucks with your robots, and he has no access to, but someone else does? Form a conspiracy? There's ways to deal with that.

>Dude you're the naive one.
You are

> Your self-sufficiency fantasies are just that, fantasies.
That's your fantasy, that you're projecting. I'm talking about robots phasing out human labor.

>We ALREADY have plenty of political support for all kinds of welfare in the west
Depends on where you live.

>we're nowhere near human labour becoming outdated
It's a long term trend, which should be obvious, because we're talking about automation. A potential labor glut however, is not unlikely.

>Do you honestly think that somehow the situation is gonna become progressively worse without not only no sort of reaction whatsoever, but even a regression of the social state?
If proles keep being wagecucks, ignoring reality, and think voting and sucking job creator dick is going to get them middle class factory jobs, yes. If you keep up this delusion, throw them a few welfare bones, until you can consolidate power among robot owners, who will presumably include some people who actually know shit about robots, then yes, the wagecuck have-nots are doomed.

>The point being that there is a phase which is post-labor but requires trade. Why is that so difficult for you co comprehend?
Vertical integration has been achieved in plenty of industries, why not for basic needs and luxurious wants?

>You don't need to know about everything, neither do the people working for you. Robots and programming in general often require large teams of specialists who have specialized jobs.
>these guys can't work together

>>i have no response
>that argument requires a response to defeat

>No, he does not. He has limited access
see >And? Can he hack or exploit enough to ensure his own safety, or can he be shut down and killed before he can accomplish anything with his hack?
You assume your security is good enough to detect him? Cmon user, we're talking about a cyberpunk protagonist here. He's got plot armour.

>Depends on where you live.
Top fucking kek. The most libertarian western country just elected a guy whose whole platform was job protection.

Yeah, he fucked up a bunch of shit. Thanks to this fucker we have so many problems.

>Vertical integration has been achieved in plenty of industries, why not for basic needs and luxurious wants?
Because I gave you a single example, the manufacture of computers, where vertical integration would take far more than your net worth, even if you were very wealthy.

>these guys can't work together
Not if you can divide and conquer. Considering how much people hate socialism for absolutely no reason, it seems to be working out pretty well.

>that argument requires a response to defeat
Your initial response was literally ">"

>see
Already been responded to. You people are deluded. I'm not even sure what a nail in robot armor is supposed to kill you. If you work on one robot a day on rotation, and suddenly there is an out of commission robot that you were supposed to fix, guess who gets eliminated.

>You assume your security is good enough to detect him? Cmon user, we're talking about a cyberpunk protagonist here. He's got plot armour.
I just write an autobiography and give myself plot armor. Also my origin story was that I was a supertech genius who started a cybersecurity robot start up, and I actually held my early clients prisoner in their own homes while I drained their bank accounts, so I'm actually already the main character in your novel, but now I'm also the guy who owns robots and exploits other sub 130 IQ brainlet techies.

>The most libertarian western country just elected a guy whose whole platform was job protection.
Yes, and? That just proves how wagecucked those people are. I already dressed this

>>Do you honestly think that somehow the situation is gonna become progressively worse without not only no sort of reaction whatsoever, but even a regression of the social state?
>If proles keep being wagecucks, ignoring reality, and think voting and sucking job creator dick is going to get them middle class factory jobs, yes. If you keep up this delusion, throw them a few welfare bones, until you can consolidate power among robot owners, who will presumably include some people who actually know shit about robots, then yes, the wagecuck have-nots are doomed.

It's exactly that mentality that dooms them. If they were socialists or something, then maybe they'd have a chance. But look who they voted for when they voted for protecting jobs.

>COMMUNISM IS A LIE THAT NEVER WORKS
>BUT DON'T LOOK AT ALL THESE CAPITALIST INTRICATE DETAILS THAT WILL SURELY IRON OUT IN A COMPLEX ECONOMY OF DEPLETING RESOURCES

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I don't usually like to point fingers at specific individuals and call them the cause of an entire ideological movement that has only had a net negative impact on humanity.

But Wahab is the exception

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That's not a pic of your mom

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One of the Saviors of humanity, who died for our sins.

>everyone would be a bum or a lord
You're pretty fucking retarded aren't you?
You know how people make money?
By working.
You know how people get "rich"? by being euntropenuers.
UBI is simply false philanthropy.

>
>>pay people to buy your stuff
>Oh no it's not you. It's the government taking your money away and giving it to other people so you won't pointlessly hoard it.
You are absolutely fucking retarded.
This is the textbook definition of theft.
Find one person who is "pointlessly hoarding wealth".

>actually believing really meaningful automation will hit any time in our lifespans
pic related: meanwhile in China

And after wages in China have increased too much to make this viable (if that ever happens, I don't know), central asia, middle east and Africa are next to become the industrial power houses of the world for a few decades.
And after that has happened (= in a century or so), global capital will maybe consider looking into this whole automation thing. But not as long as dirt-cheap human labor is available.

>Find one person who is "pointlessly hoarding wealth".

Speaking of waste let me point out a little-known paradox that threatens our economies today.

>TWIN PEAKS
>I call it the Twin Peaks paradox. One peak is the mountain of debt that is casting its long shadow everywhere. In Europe, in the United States, in China, the world over. Everyone can see this debt mountain. But few notice its twin – a second peak lurking in its shadow: a mountain of idle cash belonging to rich savers and corporations too terrified to invest their savings in productive activities that can generate the incomes necessary to extinguish the debt mountain and also produce things humanity needs desperately, for example green energy.
>Two numbers tell the story: In the last three months, 3.4 trillion dollars was spent in America, Britain and the Eurozone on industrial plants, machines, equipment, roads, houses, railways, schools, office buildings etc. 3.4 trillion sounds like a lot of money. But consider another number: $5.1 trillion of idle cash which is slushing around in America, Britain and the Eurozone, doing nothing except inflating stock markets and bidding up house prices.
>So, a mountain of debts and a mountain of idle money form twin peaks that refuse to cancel each other out through the normal operations of the markets. The result is stagnating wages, more than a quarter of 25-to-54 year olds out of work in America, Europe and Japan, and low demand that, in a never-ending circle, reinforces the pessimism of potential investors who fear… low demand thus bringing it about by not investing. Exactly like Oedipus’ father who, motivated by the oracle’s prophesy that he would be killed by his son, unwittingly created the conditions that ensured Oedipus would kill him.
-- yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/12/09/the-economic-case-for-authentic-democracy-ted-global-geneva-8th-december-2015/