How different would history be if dragons were real (the flying, firebreathing, talking kind)

something as big as a dragon cant fly by sheer strength of muscles

Not the point

sorry, I didnt get your point
can you elaborate please?

Just because you don immediately understand something does not make it magic in the same way the method of flight for a bee was not understood did not make the bee a magical creature.

Furthermore I find that rationality to be lazy and you to be rather dull for suggesting it although I do not fault you for requiring explanation as I may not have been as clear as I thought I was and for that I apologize.

well, isn't magic anything we dont understand?
And I think it is pretty safe to say that a giant reptile that can talk and ignore the laws of aerodynamics is not a product of evolution.
A much more likely explanation would be that it was artificially created, by gods for example

That stupid though

>isn't magic anything we dont understand
Maybe back in the 1300's

>ignore the laws of aerodynamics
You're assuming it does because you haven studied it in the same way pope assumed the bee did because they hadn't conducted a true study of its method of flight.

That said neither speech nor intelligence would qualify as "magical" properties impossible to occur through evolution.

As soon as humans figured out how to kill them, theyd have been hunted to extinction like any other large animal.

They are real. They're dinosaurs.

>the same way pope assumed
*people assumed

Or is a shape shifting inter-dimensional spirit being not bound by the physical laws of nature.

If they could fly and were as mar as us that'd be pretty hard to do

Our intelligence is the only bonus we have as hunters ad they have that plus are stronger, breathe fire and can fly.

evolution doesn't occure randomly.
There would need to be an increase in evolutionary fitness for dragons to evolve a larger brain or a vocal chord.
Also, evolution can't do just anything, it is still constrained by laws of physics, so breaking aerodynamic properties is not an option.
If we were to discover a dragon skeleton today, it would be a good proof for the existance of god/aliens/ancient advanced civilizations

>so breaking aerodynamic properties
This is where I start calling you a retard because you can't get a specific point I've repeated already.

>You dont know they break any laws in aerodynamics

You are assuming it is based on immediate visual evidence without any deeper study by substituting that study with "it's magic".

You're being retarded user, stop it.

so you think a creature the size and bulk of a dragon would be capable of muscle-powered flight?

Where are they?
How far can they fly?
Are they on an island out in nowhere, and can't easily make it to inhabited lands?

Anyway, to survive, they'd need to farm mammoths, or something, probably.

The fire in its body could give it uplift, though strategic releasing of hot air.
Or just make it like a balloon.

I'm saying if I saw it flying I would investigate how it is accomplishing it instead of being a retard that does nothing and just says it's magic.

and if after investigation, you discover that they fly by bending gravity, for example, you would then say "yes, they totally evolved the ability to bend gravity naturally, no way they are artificially created creatures"?

>Where are they?
In Europe
>How far can they fly?
Like a bird, I guess
>Are they on an island out in nowhere, and can't easily make it to inhabited lands?
Well, they can fly, so spreading from island to mainland is not a huge problem for them.

If after analyzing their anatomy and looking at the fossil record and determining they have no predecessor and their method of flight cannot be explained I would shelf it until I, or someone else, could explain it.

Saying "its magic" is a non-explanation and ultimately a lazy method of understanding anything.

Now if aliens/gods/spirits/inter-dimensional beings came down from heaven, showed me their lab ad explained their dragon making process to me, that would be a different story but still ultimately a scientific explanation for the dragon's existence.

Well, considering how fat they are, they likely can't fly very far. If they were on an isolated island, there'd be no danger, but in Europe, we'd either be extinct, or they'd be our kings, depending on how violent they are.
But has it been confirmed that that's how they fly?
They probably fly like this:

if they would fly like this, they would look like hot air balloons and not like dragons

How do we know they don't have big skinflaps over their regular flesh?
We'd need to study it.
Also, well placed vent-gills releasing hot air under the wings are also an option.

i have the feeling that this thread is going a bit offtopic.
it was supposed to be about how humans would have dealt with the existance of dragons, and not how dragons ability to fly can be explained scientifically

"Magic" is just a way of saying "you don't know" while inflating your ego.

Here you are, making a thread with an unclear question, with tons of room for fun elaboration, which is half the fun for most of us.
A 100 on a test may be great, but a 50 is an F.
Don't be an ass, is my point.

Also, don't be an idiot.

I am really sorry.
I hope that one day, I will acquire the ability to create precise and high quality threads.

We'll yeah, we defeated dinosaurs.
>being this ignorant

Just use your imagination Squidward, you do have one right?

it would be fucking brutal as fuck

would you like to futher elaborate your point?

dude they're like fucking allosaurs with wings and flamethrowers what's there to elaborate

You might have a point there

Veeky Forums: No Fun Allowed

depending on their exact abilities we would likely have killed them all hundreds if not thousands of years ago

We also have more stamina than the vast majority of animal life, we can stand and walk and run for a much longer time. It really comes down to whether dragons are faster than us. If they're slower, or they can only go about the same speed, then we can probably outrun them.

pretty sure that any flying thing is faster than a human

1/2

if you want to talk dragons first thing is 6 limbed tetapods are impossible so either the front or back legs would be wings.

second fire breathing is very implausible but not impossible from a biological standpoint. a dragon could in theory use methane and other gasses released in digestion that it could store in its body as fuel with the added bonus their lighter than air and could aid in flying. the hardest part is ignitions so assuming an early dragon accidentally ate a flint and pyrite got it stuck in its gullet and struck them its not impossible for it to become some evolutionary behavioral adaption. basically evolutionary adapted tool usage.

on size they could probably be no bigger than horses, given azhdarchid pterosaurs seem to have been pushing it in terms of size and ability to fly.
On intelligence and ability to learn language that would be a hugely significant evolutionary leap
on a par with fire breathing. and that is simply developing their own internal language, not being capable of human speech.
now onto ecology,
sticking to OP's theme lets say dragons are a unique warm blooded clade of Archosaurs(birds and crocodiles) endemic to Europe at the end of the last ice age as modern humans first spread into Europe. firstly Europe would be a vastly different place to how it was then because large forests are not good hunting grounds for large flying predators so Europe would probably be similar to a cooler African Savannah, with elephants uprooting trees replaced with dragons setting forest fires which also means that everything that lived there would be different, herbivores would be adapted to open plains(tarpans aorochs winsent and many others) instead of forests as would predators like cave bears/lions/hyenas.
The entire ecological fabric of Europe changes completely. then there is the problem of niche exploitation, would stone age humans even be able to compete with a horse sized fire breathing reptile that is as intelligent as them?

thats very nice but dragons work by the rules of magic/highly adanced science, not by evolution

>explain how dragons are evolutionary possible

> dragons work by the rules of magic/highly adanced science, not by evolution.

>would stone age humans even be able to compete with a horse sized fire breathing reptile that is as intelligent as them?
No, we would avoid their areas entirely and probably wage genocidal wars against them and them against us. It would likely come down to reproduction.

I just think that if you try to explain dragons through evolutions, you will end up with creatures that have very little in common with the beasts we know from mythology and fantasy

eh it depends how you spin it. Fire breathing and intelligence are relatively easy compared to flight but it depends on how you distribute the mass, for example Quetzalcoatlus (the largest flying animal known) was more in line with the size if a giraffe despite being a similar mass to a horse. so a large fire breathing reptile is not impossible you could have it lithe and thin like Quetzalcoatlus or smaller and more stocky.

Yeah, but the problem is, I dont really see the evolutionary path that would help a creature to evolve all of those abilities.
For example, why would a giant reptile that can fly and shoot flames need intelligence in the first place? It would be an apex predator even if its dumb like a rock
Also, I hate 4 limbed dragons

a lot of autism ITT

? stupid post

>and clearly some magic is involved
this is a history board faggot, not fantasy alt-his roleplaying

society and culture

for this ill assume dragons are not unlike lions, living in family groups that hunt and gather from a territory.being opportunist omnivores not unlike humans.

the main objection to coexistence is that they both directly compete for the same resources namely meat and forage. In a conflict dragons outdo humans in strength fire and have complete air superiority the only ace in the hole humans have is technology which is why in the long run humans would probably out compete dragons. the possibility of both coming to some sort compromise is also not out of relm of possibility, along the lines of humans give dragons farmed food and a general increased quality of life, dragons agree not to fuck with humans and fight with them in their wars/make charcoal/help them in smelting metal goods and such

Lastly the idea of dragons developing their own limited civilization by selectively breeding animals in their territories and or farming is not impossible perhaps by cultural osmosis dragons could pick up them from humans but their still hamstrung by their inability to craft tools themselves.

But alt history threads are fine right?

Kill yourself you idiot.

well fire breathing and flight have some crossover in that a potential gas bladder to store fuel for fire breathing would lighten the animal like a sort of balloon. and intelligence is a bit of a wildcard but seems to be linked to sociability and tool usage.

Read Temeraire.
Some of the books in ther series are a bit meh but it's Napoleonic warfare with dragons.

...

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OOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooh YEEEEaaaaah!

>in the same way the method of flight for a bee was not understood
Except that's bullshit:
abc.net.au/science/articles/2014/07/29/4056181.htm

Not that it isn't also besides the point, as it would be, theoretically possible, to have a large flying, even fire breathing, beasty. It may not take the exact proportions or form of the western dragon, it'd likely be something a whole lot more sinuous, but, as we've seen in some microscopic sea life, the biological equivalent of even jet engines is possible. It'd just be a very odd path for evolution to take, and one that simply didn't happen. Since you're talking alt-history, it's simple enough to say it did. No need to blame it on "magic" or yet-to-be-understood science though.

>microscopic sea life

what about squids and cuttlefish?
There macroscopic sea life that utilize jet propulsion

>History would be different because man would have tamed and harnessed them
These would've been too wild and too big to tame and harness.

Have you looked at what humans have actually tamed before the industrial revolution made basically all animals more or less submissive?
-swine
-cows
-dogs which came from wild-dogs
-chicken
-hens
-elephants
-horses

And a few others. Most dangerous animals were never fully tamed or only in very small numbers by very powerful people. There is a reason, why pet-leopards weren't common, why indians didn't casually ride bison or why Russian don't all have a bear in their home other than on the vodka bottle.

Fair enough, though I was thinking more of the turbine like structures on certain voxilla.

Point being, it's biologically possible for a dragon-esque creature to exist under current scientific laws, even if it's a bit far fetched and clearly didn't happen that way.

ik i posted that huge tl;dr about the subject

he never said that, jesus fuck don't start non existent arguments

>fantasy alt-his roleplaying
a majority of the posters (commies and stormweenies) seem to disagree