What if?

Let's have a little fun Veeky Forums and imagine that Ögedei Khan doesn't die in 1241. Somehow he gets his alcoholism under control and lives for at least 5 more years.

Without his death, Subutai and his hoard remain in East Europe instead of picking up and retreating to the steppe for a kurultai.

Does Subutai smash the rest of Europe and effectively conquer all the way to the Atlantic? If not, who would have stopped him?

Would the dark forests of Central Europe been too difficult for the Mongol's to negotiate? How much trouble do the Byzantines give them?

Subutai would finish obliterating the Poles, Hungarians, and other assorted Eastern Yuropoors. Then the Mongols would destroy the farms and let the earth return to fallow and colonize Eastern Yuropia.

Does he just stop there? Surely some scout riders would've come into contact with Germanic peoples and reported back to Subutai.

>yurop unites under mongolia
I'm mildly okay with this result.

They would need reinforcements from China, Persia and mongolia to go further then Hungary

If we're to believe the sources Subutai had 30,000-50,000 strong, I don't really see them needing reinforcements with numbers like that. Especially given Mongol tactics and ability to live off the land.

No , this is the same army that was sent westwards from Mongolia in 1235, campaigning for 10 years without big losses is just not possible.

You might be right, but we're talking about a Top 5 general of all time and the Mongol horde. Supposedly he only lost 1,000 men fighting the Hungarians (who had at least 40,000).

Subutai was already planning to invade the Holy Roman Empire before word of the Khan's death came. Are we assuming that wouldn't have worked out well?

>it's another "Mongols could've conquered Europe if only ____!" thread

Oh please user, Ogedei dying and Batu's bullshit is the only reason it never happened.

He was at the gates of Vienna when he was forced to halt..
There really was nothing to stop him from following the Danube down to South Germany. France and maybe Italy (if the Mongols fail to get over the Alps) might hold, but much of central europe would be fucked.

>much of central europe would be fucked.
>you will never be european with the blood of khans running through your veins

E/b/i/n : DDDS

What about Finns?

The Mongols won so many battles because they had 3 horses per soldier allowing them to choose when and where to fight and they could avoid risky engagements. They would take losses even if they won, especially away from the steppes where rivers, swamps, forests and broken terrain created bottlenecks, at the battle of Mohi for example they took casualties during a river crossing, many from crossbows, a relatively inexpensive levy.

Despite their superior logistics, maintaining a constant presence in territories was a much more difficult task than simply raiding them, they not only needed to defend supply lines but defend them against whatever large armies might be sent against them. This would be especially difficult in lands dotted with castles which had little economic/loot value yet were militarily costly to capture. A territorial conquest of Poland and Hungary would take years of sieges and pushing further west to buffer against counter-attacks, risking greater involvement from the Antipapal Germanic Confederation. Even if they won every battle they would suffer greatly from attrition. The level of commitment would be in the ballpark of the invasion of China which was closer to the Mongol homeland.

From the Mongol perspective the raids didn't yield enough loot. From the European perspective the Mongols failed to capture and hold castles and thus they had not lost territory and so they were unlikely to negotiate.

That is pretty well thought out and makes sense to me.

But wouldn't they just do what they did in China and take loot from the surrounding villages and towns? Burn the farm fields and such? Effectively starve the castle inhabitants into submission and force their hand.

Is Chinggis /our/guy?

If god wanted the monggols to rule the world, why did he invent alcohol?
check mate faithfuls

Even if they did take heavy losses they had almost all of Asia, the middle east (which was vital for international trade at the time), and northern Africa for support

Mesopotamia and North Africa was the Golden Horde right? That isn't until after the events we're talking about.

>we will never live under a single empire under glorious Mongol rule

>does Sabutai smash the rest of Europe
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
>would the dark forests of Central Europe been too difficult for the Mongols to negotiate?
absolutely
>How much trouble do the Byzantines give them?
nigga they couldnt even properly lay seige to WOODEN hungarian castles effectively. What makes anybody think they could have a chance besieging constantinople?

the problem is that Europe is really fucking far away and its a bitch to maintain a constant presence raiding there

Why is it so funny user? No army in Europe could've stood to the Mongol horde.

I concede that fortifications have always been an issue for the Mongols, but they had Chinese siege engineers right?

But isn't the Mongol's strength that they are able to live off the land and can raid for loot when it suits them?