How do you deal with fanatics? I was arguing with a Muslim and the topic of befriending believers came up. I said that according to many hadith and Quran verses it was not allowed and they asked for proof. I gave them the verses, opinions of Muslim scholars, tafsirs, hadith, etc. And every time they just said I was wrong and taking it out of context. Same went for verses telling Muslims to fight unbelievers. They did not accept that the sunnah told them to do that, and they did not really accept abrogation except in the case of alcohol.
How do you reason with fundamentalists? Apparently using their own sources doesn't even work.
Also, this isn't a bash Islam thread. We have enough of those. I'm just wondering how to debate people who deny what Islam is or religious fanatics in general. Pic related, it's what she seriously believed.
Its basically impossible unless you get them to deconstruct their own emotional and mental blocks.
Elijah White
>hurrr how I argue with irrational people that already made up their minds and have perfected mental gymnastics
this is a shit thread op
Hudson Young
>taking it out of context And here it is, the main reason quranists all over the world sit perplexed under live candles, shunned by their tribe so they end up becoming poetic hermits.
Shit is like the enigma machine and it doesn't matter if you are a native Arabic speaker or not, since everyone has their own opinion on how to interpret it, with our without hadifh refrences.
David Ward
People change their minds. There are former Muslims who convert to other faiths or stop believing. Same for other faiths. So, clearly it's possible somehow. I was just thrown for a loop when they started denying Muslim sources and getting mad about it. I've never seen that kind of denial. It made me think they were trolling at first.
Tyler White
I think the Socratic method works well. If you attack their viewpoints, they go into auto-defense mode. If they themselves reveal their own contradictory beliefs, you can make a crack in their wall.
Eli Anderson
The weird thing is they were not a Quranist. They listened to hadith, but "ignored ones that clearly went against the morals in the Quran". So, they didn't care about sahih or other classifications by scholars and just picked out what they presumably felt was right.
Luke Long
well at least the silver lining is that most people are ignorant about what their religion is even supposed to be about and tend towards a "live and let live" approach
Let's face it people cherry picking when it comes to books written thousands of years ago can only be a good thing
William Rodriguez
Just sit in front of the computer and discuss with them. Google those hadiths. Everyone trust google. Most Muslim are ignorant, the same can be said to Christians.
Now OP, if I may ask, what are your goals talking with the Muslim?
Michael Cooper
Well, they have since blocked me when I used a tafsir from Ibn Kathir to prove a point. My purpose, though, was to explain what Islam really preaches and advocates for. The original roots of it and as it was/is practiced all over the world. And a "religion of peace" is not it.
Jack Foster
Am I reading this correctly? >How do I deal with fundamentalists? I tried telling some muslims that they shouldn't make friends and should fight unbelievers but they didn't want to go along with me! Sounds like you are actually arguing for fundamentalism.
Daniel Rodriguez
why doesn't Aisha want to kill the kuffar with me this Hadith clearly instructs her to instead she wants to marry Mahmoud he doesn't even go to mosque
Reeeeeeeeeeeeee
Jose Reed
Because I brought it up when they claimed they followed the Quran the right way and I said "why are you friends with unbelievers when your faith says it's immoral?" She said I was wrong and I attempted to prove my point. I was arguing it to show that Islam isn't this hippie religion she makes it out to be and is actually very strict. I figured if I could convince her on that minor point she'd see the other issues it has. All they did was basically get mad and block me once they started running out of ways to try to defend it.
Nicholas Price
they were probably sick of being harangued by a fedoralord desperate to get them to admit he's right and blow themselves up at a train station
Henry Reed
>said I was wrong and taking it out of context
It's interest since the Quran is meant to be perfectly clear according to the Quran itself and that Muhammad is the 'beautiful' pattern of conduct. Christian Prince an Islamic polemist who is an Arab Christian born in an Arab country, has said that this is normal since Muslims play games to divert the attention away from Islam and onto the person arguing against them.
Jaxon Torres
Well, those Muslim got no balls. If they're really Muslim, then they should at least reply to you later when they can think of something, instead of blocking you.
Bait them out. Tell them that they're cowards for not defending their own religion. Now, if they finally want to talk to you, reason with them.
Now, regarding your goals, here's FAQ about Islam:
Is it about the harsh punishment? Remember there's also harsh punishment in the Bible, example John 8:1-12. For Jesus comes to fulfill the Law of the prophets, not to destroy them.
Jaxson Scott
>tafsir from Ibn Kathir
so apparently the greatest muslim scholar just ain't good enough for them.
Levi Stewart
That's just what most people of faith do, it's really the opposite of a fanatic. There's plenty of fucked up stuff in the Bible that people ignore. But to answer your question, if they can live with the cognitive dissonance then there's not much you can do, just let it go.
Eli Gutierrez
>use their own religious scriptures and scholars to prove a point about their religion and what it says
>is equivalent to wearing a fedora and being enlightened by my own intelligence
Gabriel Price
Regarding your question about 'moral of hanging with unbelievers'.
It means that doing bad things with 'unbelievers' (drinking, drug, smoking) is immoral.
But, if it was just about discussing simple matters, then it's ok.
Chase James
They're debating your interpretation of said sources. Sectarians within major religions disagree on key points of dogma despite sharing similar texts. It's even more absurd for someone outside of a religion altogether to argue with someone within it how to correctly interpret their religion.
Carter Roberts
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. You were haranguing somebody with a benign interpretation of their religion, presumably with a snifter of Laphroaig in hand, online. For what? With the hope that they join your merry band of IRC fedora tippers instead of the more likely response of feeling under siege and becoming overly defensive which is far more likely you fucking autist. How about you chase after hard targets instead of furiously tipping at moderates?
Tyler Price
>How do you reason with fundamentalists? Apparently using their own sources doesn't even work.
You are clearly reasoning with a moderate as if they are a fundamentalist, and have nobody to blame but yourself.
Kayden Edwards
Islamic fundamentalists are so terrible because the vast majority of Islam does not condemn them.
To take the Qu'ran literally must become as ridiculous as taking the Bible literally. Those who take fundamentalist views must be deemed heretical by mainstream Islam.
Oliver Hall
The verse regarding taking "Christians and Jews as friends" is thusly:
>O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Auliya' of each other. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust). 5:51
This was a command to Muslims to not seek refuge in the houses of Christians and Jews whilst at war with the pagans of Mecca, so as not to burden them with their problems.
The verses of the sword, are referring to the aforementioned war, which was defensive, and those commands were to allow for fighting in defense of oneself, as the Muslims were taking the turn thy cheek approach up until the hijra.
There are naturally different interpretations of these verses and their applicability to certain scenarios, but those were the circumstances that surrounded them. How a scholar interprets them, or a believer interprets them, is subjective, and there is few things in regards to theological consensus that all Muslim scholars agree on, except that God is one.
Xavier Russell
this fpbp
Colton Phillips
This for your question and this for what you are doing.
Colton Murphy
It's like Islam permits lying to non muslims or something.
Eli Ward
That's Socratic irony ya dweeb
James Baker
"Let me tell you what you believe" doesn't work, ever.
