If the nazi's kept records, then why can't we just dump 'em all in a pile in some pastebin or upload site so everyone can see for themselves?
We need to get the numbers straight. I'm sick of people arguing over this shit.
I want each source attributed with a name, a number and a list of eyewitnesses, with redundant sources to the same incident grouped under the same heading. I want proven dead ONLY.
I'm not asking for a recount, I just want to make the information easier to access and for laymen to source and understand.
This is the information age, this should be a simple accounting problem, without need to delve into hysterics.
Of particular import in these studies is the nazi's claims of supply line shortages and typhoid outbreaks.
Are these claims at all accurate? This might provide some insight behind the nazi's reasoning at the time. If their supporters can make a case that they were in fact euthanized, not simply exterminated, they might find increased popular support for fascist movements among intellectuals in western european countries, such as greece
You could also argue that many of the nazi's who testified did so under duress, as they were on trial for war crimes and faced the death penalty, yet were being tried by tribunal.
There were no jurors and the judges presiding over their cases were english, american, french and russian.
Joseph Hughes
I'm not going to watch a video.
A video provides a narrative, and a narrative can be misconstrued as a bias.
I want data.
Oliver White
>Daily reminder that Russian Communists were in control of the "crime scene" until 1989. >Daily reminder that no digging is permitted at Treblinka because it is a "holy Jewish cemetery".
Jaxson King
I'm not arguing that they did it.
I'm arguing why they did, what the numbers are, and the circumstances surrounding the event.
Logan Campbell
It's literally all data. He literally shows you books, page numbers, articles, and archived video footage.
Nolan Sanchez
>12 replies >4 poster i wonder what board is behind this
Christian Cooper
So you want to know whether is was electrified floors, deadly steam chambers, real showers with holes in the ceiling for gas pellets, fake showers where zyklon gas came out of shower heads, diesel exhaust gas chambers, or any mixture of the above? Did they kill them in the 10x10 room with the wood door? Or was it the Majdenek shower room with wood doors and glass windows? And how about at Auswitch where 2,000 people went into the gas chamber that had 1 door and it was underground. Then SS dragged bodies out "with canes" loaded onto an elevator, then put into ovens that could not be "stacked 4 high with corpses". Lots of questions....
Chase Morris
You know what? I'm just going to program an sql database shell myself. Somebody can copy and paste it, then propagate it with whatever data they like.
Jaxon Rivera
>Lots of questions....
This is the classic "full of shit" rhetorical strategy.
>if I make a claim, somebody can rebut the claim >I'll just make insinuations and leave them there in the background so people won't blow me the fuck out
Colton Bell
Fuck.
SQL is more raw than I thought it was.
I just want to do something like this:
Catalogue Number: Just a serial number to the claim. Type: Article (as in a document or corpse) or Testimony. Name: Name of the article or name of the witness. Number: Number of proven dead. Source: Link to the source material.
Thats it.
Julian Fisher
by "proven dead" i mean i don't want just guesses and estimates.
Mason Scott
What the hell man? You can't get an accurate number like that. What, do you want to link every picture taken as a source, and have us count all the corpses in those pictures to get an exact number?
I mean, this is a nice thought and all, but how exactly do you plan on getting an exact number here? How are we going to identify all the corpses here?
Jason Allen
You know what's a good rhetorical strategy? Equating holocaust revisionism with antisemitism and racism, arresting, imprisoning, and fining people who question or disagree with the "official" holocaust story.
Justin Reyes
What's the point in knowing the exact number? What difference does that make?
Brayden King
Oh sweet, it's the
>you disagree with me >you must agree with them
gambit
For your next move, you'll accuse me of being a paid shill.
Ryan Sullivan
Even if you can find "proof of death" how will you separate Jews from political prisoners, PoW's, Gypsies, etc, etc? We cannot forget that the concentration camps are not a Jewish only experience.
Jaxon Perez
well you have to have some numerical basis for your claim, or else your just guessing.
just maybe add a scientific notation showing the least significant digit.
If its around 11 thousand add a column that says 11xxx.
Colton Ross
You tried attacking my "rhetorical strategy" and then got flustered when I did the same. Why shouldn't I assume you have an opposing viewpoint when you try and deflect the issues I bring up?
Dominic Perez
oh boy, we have a self-martyr here
>Equating holocaust revisionism with antisemitism and racism Holocaust denial indeed implies antisemitism.
>imprisoning, and fining people who question or disagree with the "official" holocaust story People who question or disagree are OK, when you start selling genocide-denial publication, then you might have a problem but that depends on the country and the genocide.
Nathan Roberts
Oh, i'm not counting jewish dead. I'm counting total dead.
I'm counting everyone who died in the concentration camps who wasn't a POW or Bombing casualty..
Asher Howard
So, we are estimating a bit?
What sources are you accepting here? Testimonies, photos, and written accounts I assume?
Isaac Sullivan
>you criticized what I said >I made an unsupported assertion that you wanted to put me in jail
horseshoe effect in full swing.
Levi Martin
Any physical article of evidence and any source of eyewitness testimony that can be attributed.
Julian Flores
somebody at /g was kind enough to give me this little snippet of code.
>
Henry Nguyen
>Holocaust denial indeed implies antisemitism. So only Jews were killed then? It's impossible to believe an event is untrue or inaccurate without being racist as well?
>when you start selling genocide-denial publication, then you might have a problem Pretty much everything that is a serious attempt for the truth of the holocaust is free material. I have yet to see anything that wasn't also available for free. >but that depends on the country and the genocide. So some genocides are more important than others. I'll be sure to remember that!
Samuel White
That's how you do it, scriptfriend
Chase Taylor
synagogues did censuses before and after WW2
James Price
...
Lucas Roberts
You could probably use the same table for MIA jews, but I only want KIA. ("Action" being the concentration camps)
Angel Cruz
>well you have to have some numerical basis for your claim, or else your just guessing.
Historians have already created estimates on the number of dead based on various types of numerical data, including census reports, deportation rolls, etc.
There is no way of determining the exact number of dead in any type of large scale event like this. Whether it's the Holocaust, bombing of Dresden, bombing of Hiroshima, WW2 as a whole, any war, any genocide, any mass murder. That is why death tolls are considered estimates.
Tyler Robinson
I don't see what the harm is in creating a database. If anything it should only make it easier to prove your case.
People who say that nothing happened or that the holocaust didn't take place are lunatics. Obviously something happened, lots of civilians were killed while in the custody of the nazi state, its just a question of why and how many.
Camden Howard
>So only Jews were killed then? Thats only thing you have? Semantics? Neo-nazis only focus on denying the extermination of Jews, never have I saw them denying extermination of Gypsies for example
> It's impossible to believe an event is untrue or inaccurate without being racist as well? "Innacurate" stop using such weasel words. There is no other reason to go full retard and deny holocaust other than antisemitism.
>So some genocides are more important than others. I'll be sure to remember that! Its legal to deny holodomor in Russia, its illegal to do so on the Ukraine. Shocking, isn't it?
Asher Scott
nobody is asking for that kind of accuracy. if historians have already catalogued everything then it should be easy to populate the database.
Cooper Bell
Thats the thing about secret societies you have to bow down to get enlightened. Suck up to the rich dweeby son of a rich enough guy and youre bound to be clued in on the alt right agenda of manipulating history.
They simoly wont tell the rest of us why the holocaust is key to their organisation.
Mason Wood
>I want each source attributed with a name, a number and a list of eyewitnesses, with redundant sources to the same incident grouped under the same heading. I want proven dead ONLY.
So you want people on Veeky Forums to undertake a massive project that would take years of work for... what, exactly? Something academics have already done?
Michael Reyes
This doesn't account for families who changed their names. Also the immediate reaction would be to assume these Jews were killed but Jews were moving to America and Palestine and elsewhere. From wikipedia page on Israel "Jewish refugees fleeing the Holocaust, a clandestine movement known as Aliyah Bet was organized to bring Jews to Palestine.[112] By the end of World War II, the Jewish population of Palestine had increased to 33% of the total population." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement The second "after ww2" is not dated.
Juan Rogers
Wikipedia has a lot of fake numbers all over the place; I cant believe people still think it's not censored
No, not a list of eyewitnesses. Each eyewitness account gets its own entry.
Luke White
to make the data more accessible. to show that even a layman that each source has been attributed and catalogued and that the source is not in question.
Nathaniel Nguyen
Sweet selective narrative and anecdote material.
Elijah Cruz
You don't have to start at the bottom.
You could take a top down approach, starting with most broad or group accounts of what happened and working your way down.
Jackson Miller
>if historians have already catalogued everything then it should be easy to populate the database.
Historians haven't "catalogued" everything. Historians have used primary resources over the years, but they are not all digitized or catalogued. "Should be easy to populate the database" makes me realize you have no idea what goes into determining the death toll of a massive event like this.
Jace Smith
that may be a bit excessive. you could probably attribute eyewitness accounts to group attributions.
Michael Thomas
Well, the fact that there is centralized database designed to tally the dead, (outside of hardcopy formats and decentralized repositories) means that you could be pulling a number out of your ass and we wouldn't know.
I'd rather see the data than have someone tell me to just take their word for it.
Bentley Hernandez
I get what he's saying. Like the video of the chechz Jew who was alive, how many supposed genocided weren't murdered at all. How many of the numbers killed weren't Jews, but other Europeans, gypses etc. I always though the reason Europe supposedly has less Jews is because a lot of them immigrated to Palestine or America after the war. Likewise many of the Jews killed would have been poor and none too bright. How do we known their accounts are reliable?
Nathan Bell
>nobody is asking for that kind of accuracy
OP said
>by "proven dead" i mean i don't want just guesses and estimates.
So, yeah. They are saying estimates are somehow "just" estimates, ignoring the academic work that goes into creating these estimates.
Gabriel Evans
Or even site collaborations of evidence and eyewitness testimony. Just a series of numbers that adds up to another number.
Charles White
We're already thinking about estimating in cases where it is impossible to determine an exact number. We should probably stick to conservative estimates to prevent /pol/ from complaining.
Chase Long
What I mean is, I want a number that is somehow verifiable as accurate to the leftmost digit, at least. If you say you're number is accurate to the tens of thousands, then there better be a way of verifying that information.
I don't want the testimony of some illiterate peasant who counts on his fingers who looked at a pile of body and said, "lots".
So why are there children in uniforms when they are killed upon arrival since they can't work?
Go to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_the_Holocaust Scroll down to "Auschwitz" and see the uniformed children again with caption. "Jewish twins kept alive to be used in Mengele's medical experiments. These children were liberated from Auschwitz by the Red Army in January 1945." So this caption with no citation explains why they weren't killed. Because of even more fiendish human experimentation plans!
This doesn't seem far fetched to anyone?
William Johnson
>means that you could be pulling a number out of your ass and we wouldn't know. >I'd rather see the data than have someone tell me to just take their word for it.
No one is telling you to "take their word for it." Read books and their bibliographies. Google "how do we know how many people died in (whatever event suits your fancy)."
Blake Powell
Maybe you could start by region?
that seems like a good place to start. X number of deaths a location A, X number of deaths at location B, ect.
Wyatt Morales
>I don't want the testimony of some illiterate peasant who counts on his fingers who looked at a pile of body and said, "lots". >durrr that's how historians got their numbers gaiz
oh dear
Jackson Gomez
I think we should start by source. Nazi testimonies, confessions, orders and reports come first, then survivor testimonies, then the testimonies of Allied troops that liberated the camps, then physical evidence (like all the ash and bone fragments found by archeologists)
Robert Collins
Ain't no one got time for that.
In today's world, when people want a number, they want it fast. I don't want to have to reference 12 seperate books and highlight all the sections that are relevant.
Even assumming they were all availible at the library of congress or some such, you'd spend hours digging through the texts using find and search keys in order to find what you were looking for.
Honestly, I think you're making this out to be more work than it ought to be.
Jayden Cruz
>there exists people who think people overstating the holocaust justifies the incarceration of people based on race When will /pol/ end this meme
Kevin Flores
There are written account and recordings and videos and photos of the Holocaust available at the LOC.
Just saying, it's a goldmine for sources for this database.
Landon Taylor
Well, how bout you start by region then narrow it down a bit?
Brody Bennett
"Witness Vera Alexander described how he sewed two Gypsy twins together back to back in an attempt to create conjoined twins." Do you really think anyone with multiple doctorates in anthropology and medicine is stupid enough to think he "could create conjoined twins" by fucking sewing them together? Or are we supposed to believe these are just the most 2D evil villains ever?
Logan Roberts
Yeah, but I mean, thats a lot of work.
Wouldn't it be easier to find somebody who just knows? I mean, that IS what they get paid for, right?
Just start with a list of camps and how many were killed at each camp.
Charles Davis
(sigh) I guess you could add one more tag: JEW, NOTJEW, UNKNOWN
Logan Murphy
So like this?
Region: Nation of death Camp: The Nazi camp where the death occured Type: Article (as in a document or corpse) or Testimony. Catalogue Number: Just a serial number to the claim. Name: Name of the article or name of the witness. Number: Number of proven dead. Source: Link to the source material.
Also, to the dude doing the database, not all deaths occurred in the camps. Maybe we should also split the database to have a category for those who died outside the camps.
Kevin Howard
I'm pretty sure not even the Holocaust societies claim that 6 million is a solid number.
Its an estimate. No one goes around trying to deny the Germans had 3 million Soviet Pows die under their care.
Seems like a big number too.
Josiah Mitchell
You could just call that misc. deaths
Christian Parker
meant to link The USSR had a huge army. By far they had the most casualties in the whole war, I believe.
Gabriel Gonzalez
I think its best to exclude POW's. The way you treat your prisoners of war is fundamentally different than the way you treat civilian prisoners you've detained.
Colton Ward
Now if we can just find some sucker dumb enough to do all the work for us...
Wyatt Wood
ash and bone from where? Where you're not allowed to dig? Watch from 38:10 to 41:35 youtu.be/47rbRNSGQUs?t=2291
Christian Ramirez
>Germans treating Soviets like well fed POWs
Wew lad!
Zachary Green
Here, I found this list online, edited it and cleaned it up a bit. Its by no means inclusive, but its a good place to start:
All you have to do is go to wikipedia, plug in the numbers, and there you go, you're off to a running start.
Adrian Hall
Whoa, let's slow done and get the database running before we add stuff to it
Luis Ramirez
You could put in Minimum and Maximum columns as well, to prevent shitfits.
Grayson Gutierrez
I'm not exactly /g/, but it sounds like you want someone to manually enter data for some 6 million or more people. If the point is to audit every alleged victim, I don't see how you could automate it.
Elijah Green
>So why are there children in uniforms when they are killed upon arrival since they can't work?
Children were not always immediately killed upon arrival if they were old enough to work, especially after 1943 when they broadened the slave labor to include teenagers and older children. The children who survived were able to lie about their ages in order to avoid the initial selection, although it didn't always work (one survivor notes that she was 14 and said she was 16 and was let through, but her friends the same age as her did the same and were selected). In some cases it was sheer luck. There were some younger children (including babies/infants) who were lucky enough to be in AB-II, which had children's barracks. Non-Jewish prisoners were allowed to keep their babies as long as they kept working after delivery (they used to automatically kill women after delivery, but again this changed in 1943) so some babies were able to survive this way.
>So this caption with no citation explains why they weren't killed. Because of even more fiendish human experimentation plans! This doesn't seem far fetched to anyone/ >far fetched
Except the children survived to tell their story, and there are witnesses to the human experimentation, as well as photographs. And the source for the photograph on Wikipedia links to additional information.
Asher Cox
Who the hell is going to pay to keep a database site up? I mean, I assume the intention is to keep the database online.
Asher Hernandez
It sounds to me like you haven't been following this thread at all.
Asher Turner
>Ain't not one got time for that >Honestly, I think you're making this out to be more work than it ought to be.
So you don't think it's a lot of work to gather thousands and thousands and thousands of resources, not all of them digital or otherwise available online or even to the general public, in various languages, from multiple countries, and catalogue them according to specific criteria which now includes determining the eyewitness' literacy and intelligence?
Jackson Powell
>What is ancestry.com and a million of other databases
David Gonzalez
There were hundreds of camps, so this isn't even the tip of the iceberg.
Jayden Flores
You're losing sight of the big picture.
Why argue semantics until we've got a number?
Can anyone here plug in the numbers to this dataset? You can do it manually, its no big deal. Just open up a text file.
Zachary Richardson
Ancestry.com is not going to pay for a bunch of Veeky Forums posters to keep a database on the Holocaust.
Joseph Morris
And they don't even give us a number, they just say a "large number". I believe people will find skeletons where people died and were buried but the fact that they don't even give a number. Wew.
Also Caroline Coll is a complete fraud! Her entire "archaeology report" is debunked here. youtube.com/watch?v=47rbRNSGQUs She has to say "more graves where hidden" because they are not allowed to dig on the KNOWN alleged grave site. So she finds a prehistoric shark tooth then goes and finds a few bones in a KNOWN Polish Christian cemetery.
Parker Baker
I'm not asking for thousands, I'm asking for 22.
22 sources, 22 numbers.
Julian Brooks
can you provide a more extensive list?
Christopher Reed
Sorry that I can't help but be sarcastic. A lot of people should just watch BOTH sides regarding "what really" happened. The entire story relies on emotional manipulation and the taboo of even daring to question it's legitimacy.
Tyler Perry
don't forget the link that user so generously provided us with.
