How does Israel define itself? Help me understand without /pol/ level trolling

just seems like Israel is trying to function as a colonial power like it's the 1890s and so it's always out of step with the rest of the western/industrialized world.

I heard in Italian, Jews (ashkenazi, Sephardic, ect) are known ethnically as Hebrews, which clears up linguistic confusion between race vs religion. You can be an atheistic Hebrew or a Jewish Hebrew or a Roman Catholic Hebrew etc. converts likewise become Jewish Italians etc.

>collection of museums versus a colonial state

wew
e
w

>why does a religion need their own country
because after the european jewish community was devastated in ww2 it was decided that by having a country with a majority jewish population that encouraged the global jewish community to relocate there, that kind of repression could be eliminated.

>Tax haven vs slightly larger tax haven

ftfy
t
f
y

and they ended turning gaza into a ghetto in the aftermath of the holocaust. really makes u think.

Same deal with Russian.

more comparable to a medieval ghetto

It'll take more than that to make me think. Israel does many questionable things, but the Israeli-Palestinian issue is far more complicated than you're letting on.

Gaza is controlled by Hamas who have in their charter that they are committed to the complete destruction of Israel, how are they supposed to negotiate with someone who refuses to even recognize their right to exist?

Imagine if a bunch of LARPer neckbeards in America decided they are actually Romans because they worship Sol Invictus, they would collectively start learning Latin and then move to Italy, establish some retarded colony, treat the people who already live in Italy as second class citizens, make some world power finance all their military expenses and accuse anyone who criticizes this glorified cosplaying of being anti-Roman.

That's pretty much how ridiculous Israel is.

Ironically it was Israel who propped up Hamas in order to weaken the PLO.

The correct comparison would be actual modern Italians (and by the same token Greeks) who are about (if not even less) as related to Ancient Romans and Greeks as Jews are to ancient Jews.

Modern Greeks and Italians actually have a continuity of inhabiting those lands and their language organically developped from ancient Greek and Latin.

Meanwhile the Ashkenazi Jews lived far away from the middle east and spoke a Germano-Slavic language (yiddish) and decided to recreate the dead Hebrew language from scratch. It's literally one giant LARP.

That's a bit of an oversimplification don't you think? The long history of oppression faced by jews in nations where they were a minority is its raison d'être. Yeah it would have been better if it had been crafted from German clay instead of Arab, but what's done is done.

As I said, Israel has made many question decisions in its history but that doesn't change the current situation. It's quite clear that neither Israel or the Palestinians are serious about peace and just wish to perpetuate the status quo forever.

They should've been deported to Madagascar like people wanted before WW2.

And honestly, if oppression of Jews was the reason why they created themselves a state, then why the fuck are there still Jews all over America and Europe?

Because Christian Serbs were genocidal retards

>Jews in America

because it's america

>jews in Europe

They exist still?

>What is the orthodox jewish community in Antwerp?

They're still in some places and still in control of some fairly large businesses as well. It's not like western europe kept on the anti-jewish agenda after ww2. In fact, with the knowledge of concentration camps having existed I'd say they probably were given a lot of slack.

>They exist still?
Oh yeah. Very significant positions of power actually.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ifm64d3nY

Zionism exists only as a reaction to Christian European anti-Semitism lmfao. All Jewish nationalism is rooted in the fear of persecution.

If Hitler really wanted to destroy the Jewish presence in Germany, he should have embraced full social tolerance until the Jews intermarried themselves into oblivion.

That's happening among secular American Jews right now.

>the entire pretext for Israel even existing and having any legitimacy is that God gave that land to the Jews so they can rule it according to his commandments
>40% of Israeli Jews are atheist or agnostic

Really makes you think

>Modern Greeks and Italians actually have a continuity of inhabiting those lands

No one understands this user.

>video begins with a Hitler quote
/pol/ really has become a caricature of itself

>All Jewish nationalism is rooted in the fear of persecution.

You can say that about nationalism from traditionally persecuted minorities.

Well, yeah. He didn't say that makes their nationalism justified.

>if oppression of Jews was the reason why they created themselves a state, then why the fuck are there still Jews all over America and Europe?
well I can't speak for anyone other than myself but as an American Jew I have seriously considered relocating to Israel (the one actual privilege afforded to me just from being born jewish) but there really doesn't seem much reason to when you already live in a first world country where you're not facing any issues due to being jewish, which realistically I don't.

Israel is a nice place to visit, but I don't think I'd want to live there. The security situation is far from ideal, the macho militaristic culture makes me sick, and its practically run by jewish fundamentalist psychos who have absolutely no understanding that their actions towards the Palestinians cause more harm than good.

>i should get something because of my heritage
WE

Basically Israel is the biggest wewuzery I've ever seen, the only wewuzers that actually went full meme and created a country based on their delusions. I don't understand why we laugh at black Americans who say they descend from pharaohs, or Macedonians who think they're the heir of Alexander, while at the same time we take equally retarded Ashkenazi claims seriously.

Either way, Israel > another shitskin Arab state.

People and the media give Israel shit for the Palestine situation, but then casually overlook the fact that Israel has never started an offensive war to take territory. Hell, they even gave back land they took in defensive wars on a number of occasions.

Meanwhile there hasn't been a single objectively decent country run by arabs. Either they are run by dictators, are islamist shitholes or are shitting all over the rights of guest workers.

>What does a "jewish state" mean?

Exactly what it says: a state for Jews. Basically its purpose is to be a state in which Jews are the majority for once, a political stronghold against anti-semitism.

It is sort of racist as fuck, and I will never understand why the concept of ethnic state as a goal suddenly becomes acceptable when it is Jews who do it. We'd all be calling any German who says they want only ethnic Germans in their country a Nazi in a second.

Absolutely. And almost invariably, Independence is followed by the oppressed becoming the oppressor of another group.

Left-nationalism is dangerous because it can slow easily slip into aggressive chauvinism.

American Jews would rather be American than Israeli

its because it exists within the historical context of jewish repression, note how there had been serious palestinian zionist movements for over half a century before Israel was created, and a guerrilla war against the british since 1939, yet the notion of Israeli statehood only really became thinkable after the holocaust.

Would you have preferred no holocaust but no Israel or holocust but Israel?

>you must be a Jew to live in Israel
>but Jews can live wherever they want

Really makes you think

no holocaust, without question

Israel has solved some problems but created many new ones in the process.

I like it how /pol/acks post literal who's when they try to argue that Jews Incorporated are behind some evil conspiracy.

No one has ever heard of these people. They hold no influence. Their dreams will never be realised by their own hands.

I don't claim there is a conspiracy since I don't think the Jews are capable enough to pull that off. I do claim there is a cockload of Jewish hypocrisy and entitlement.

Scratch hard enough and you'll find that in literally any community.

The law of return is predicated on Halakah which means matrilineal through mothers line, if you cuck your enemies they win or something similar.

Do the Jews actually have any claims to the current land of Israel other than "this book says that we were here 3000 years ago"?

Their military is competent and the world's sole superpower has their back, that is their claim.

Everyone should be able to live wherever they want desu

It's cruel to restrict one's ability to travel

THE HOLOCAUST: NEVER AGAIN.

That's all there is to it.

Then why do you not only intentionally and deliberately scratch at other communities, but get defensive and angered when people scratch at the Jewish community?

But plenty of Muslims and Christians DO live in Israel. This is just some Jew whining about how he doesn't like it, not the actual state of affairs. Conspiracy indeed.

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

>muh might is always right
>except for the holocaust

Yeah...About those Muslims living in Israel...Last time I checked they weren't being treated very nicely

apples and oranges

Not really, no.

genocide - apple
we wanted to share this land but you wanted war instead, and then you lost - orange

Hmm

The Israeli Jews claim that Israel is theirs due to God's covenant with Abraham

But Christians believe that Abraham's covenant is ultimately fulfilled in Christ, and that they are children of Abraham by extension

So do Christians have just as much a claim to Israel as Jews?

Hmm

...

>>the entire pretext for Israel even existing and having any legitimacy is that God gave that land to the Jews so they can rule it according to his commandments

try again

>I believe that might = right but it's applicable only in select cases based on my arbitrary criteria

There is no other reason for them to live in that exact place.

>jews get conquered and expelled
>arabs move in
>what's done is done
>arabs get conquered by other arabs/turks/english for centuries
>no arab gives one fuck
>it's tribe vs tribe where's my gold
>nujews move in, form state the size of rhode island
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE MUH DISPLACED BROTHERS

If you believe palestinian nationalism is any less contrived than jewish nationalism you need to pull your head out of your ass

I don't really care for Palestinian nationalism but zionism is literally based on a "some people who believed in the same religion as us used to live there thousands of years ago so it should be ours forever" type of argument.

WUZ

genocide and claim to a land are two different things

Not in the sense that they're both illegal and unethical.

>illegal
explain to me how the actions of the jews in the first arab-israeli war was illegal when the jews were the one who went along with the UN resolution and the arabs were the ones who declared war in defiance of the UN

WISH WE COULD TURN BACK TIME

TO THE GOOD OL DAAAYS

For a group of LARPers with no connection to real jews, they sure get holocausted like the real thing.

>those borders

happy israel btfo those araps and fixed that shit desu

>that Jaffa
kek

Offtopic blogposting, but I took a trip to Israel three years ago, expecting a country full of ancient ruins and cozy farmhouses only to discover Israel is nothing but commieblocks everywhere. Jaffa, commieblocks. Tel Aviv, commieblocks. Haifa, commieblocks. Most of Jerusalem, yup, commieblocks.

The entire country looks like someone took a chunk of fucking Russia and teleported it to the Mediterranean.

they do have lots of ancient ruins and cozy farmhouses though, the amount of historic sites from numerous different eras is quite impressive given its small size. If you want cozy farmhouses go to a kibbutz, they're mainly just for show these days but they're pretty comfy.

Commieblocks wasn't my impression of Jerusalem though.

Try hanging out outside of the old city then, you'll see a cockton.

It certainly didn't originate with them, nor are they the only ones doing it. Half the middle east is Muslim states. Hell, Russia overtly favors Russians over any other ethnic backgrounds. Not only do they see it as their goal to be the homeland for Russians, but they see it as morally obligatory to invade and conquer other lands which have Russians.

This logic is so fucked up it's hard to know where to begin.

First, we're not talking about "right." The question was whether they have a claim to the land. They have a claim because the vast majority of the rest of the world after WWII got together and said it was theirs. Then, they've held that land against repeated hostility ever since then. So, yeah, might does equal claim.

Germany never claimed the holocaust was right because they were mighty. They claimed the holocaust was right because Jews weren't humans and didn't have a right to live.

Not really any relation whatsoever.

It allows the Jewish people to be incredibly nationalist, while pretending it's actually a religious thing. They put themselves in a "grey zone" so that it's hard to point out that they are either a nationalist or religious state. They can flip flop accusations until the accuser gets bored and let's them continue on with their goals

>so that it's hard to point out that they are either a nationalist or religious state
But they have no obligation to chose. It's not like there's some objective either/or standard. Different countries are founded and established and defined by different characteristics. It's not uncommon to have mixed-bag combos of religion and politics at the heart of a nation's existence.

There was historically more than 1 jewish state

>What is khazaria