86 billion dollars in rearranged electrons. we are going to be the biggest laughing stock in the history of mankind

86 billion USD created out of thin air. Digital currency is the funniest human invention ever created. Imagine how much energy is burned everyday to trade these rearranged electrons. Nothing is actually created.

>Paper currency is the funniest human invention ever created. Imagine how much energy is burned everyday to trade these printed papers. Nothing is actually created.

This is what the New York Stock Exchange actually looks like. A big warehouse in New Jersey filled with computers.

datacenterknowledge.com/closer-look-nyse-euronexts-nj-data-center/

All banking and stocks and futures are done via ones and zeroes these days.

I misspoke. I meant to call them digital tokens. Calling it digital currency would be a lie as most of these tokens are not used to create anything. Paper money on the hand is used to actually create real things and services. Your counterargument would work if the world actually used Bitcoins beyond memes.

welcome to the algorithm economy

Bitcoins create a few things. 1) Laughter at no coiners 2) Salt

When you realize the reality of what money actually is you're going to have a nervous breakdown.

We literally base everything off of pieces of paper that is backed by absolutely nothing besides being "trust" in a central authority. Fiat currency has an insane failure rate thoughout history.

Bbbb-buh a currency that isn't controlled by a group, with a finite amount (cannot be inflated) that requires confirmations and stores every single transaction in its code is just electrons sily!

Literally look up fractional reserve banking and you tell me which is the more sane monetary system.

You should be having a nervous breakdown yourself. All you're doing is using digital tokens to buy other digital tokens. There's no "economy". It's wealth transfer. Zero sum.

>17th century

>I misspoke. I meant to call them printed papers. Calling it paper currency would be a lie as most of these papers are not used to create anything. Gold on the hand is used to actually create real things and services. Your counterargument would work if the world actually used printed papers beyond memes.

lol
money.visualcapitalist.com/much-money-humans-created/
money.visualcapitalist.com/all-of-the-worlds-money-and-markets-in-one-visualization/

>Calling it paper currency would be a lie as most of these papers are not used to create anything
It's time to graduate high school.

10/10 im stealing this

thoughtco.com/why-paper-momey-has-value-1146309

>It’s simple: Money is a good with a limited supply and there is a demand for it because people want it. The reason I want money is because I know other people want money.

Remind you of anything?

Trust in crypto currency is growing and more and more people are willing to buy some
That's all you need to know

>Remind you of anything?
Doesn't remind me of Bitcoin if that's what you're memeing.

>Goods and services are what ultimately matter in the economy, and money is a way that allows people to give up goods and services which are less desirable to them, and get ones that are more so.

>People sell their labor (work) to acquire money in the present to purchase goods and services in the future. If I believe that money will have a value in the future, I will work towards acquiring some.

>Implying people are exchanging labor with Bitcoins
>Implying Bitcoin is not zero sum

pretty butthurt at getting btfo'd my man

why dont you just take a step back and realise your wrong

>why dont you just take a step back and realise your wrong
I'll admit I'm wrong when you'll admit Bitcoin is zero sum.

Exactly. Once trust in cryptocurrency builds to a certain level it will be unstoppable.

There are 9 year old children alive right now who have only ever known a world where Bitcoin has value. Once these kids reach their 20s the premise of Bitcoin not having value will seem as absurd to them as if you tell someone gold has no value today.

>bitcoin is zero sum
You mean it's worth exactly as much as people are putting into it?

>Implying you wouldn't suck my dick for 0.1 BTC
>implying people aren't exchanging goods and services for BTC

>You mean it's worth exactly as much as people are putting into it?
It's worth exactly what someone else is willing to lose for your gain. No labor is exchanged. No wealth is created. Hence, zero sum. This is simple logic.

>implying people aren't exchanging goods and services for BTC
>He thinks the miniscule volume of exchanging goods and services for BTC means anything
HAHAHAHA. Go to back to school, kid.

It already seems ridiculous. Tell a normie you have a whole Bitcoin. He will probably ask "And how much is a Bitcoin worth?" and after you tell him a Bitcoin is worth 2,500$ his eyes will widen and he'll ask you how to get a Bitcoin

The financial crisis dedtroyed my faith in the monetary policymakers to not wipeout my net worth in USD.

Interest rates are still so low 8 years later.
If the economy is all recovered why do we still need emergency low interest rates? What are they going to do when the next recession comes? Negative interest rates?

No one can mess with Bitcoin. There is no central authority to devalue it overnight.

lol @ paper money having a limited supply. It's never been limited & at this point over 90% of money in circulation only exists as 1s and zeros loaned out by banks from money they never had.

At what value will nocoiners start accepting reality? Or will they just sound increasingly delusional and upset well past $1 trillion marketcap?

>Negative interest rates?

Already a thing.

this has to be satire desu

you realise people said the exact same thing about paper currency in the 17th century

>dude go back to school kid lmao

this is just cringe my man

as opposed to what? quantitative easing and limitless credit for TBTF and their buddies? quid licet Iovi non licet bovi indeed
fuck OP line of thinking and death to central banking kikes

The salt must flow

This guy just says ZERO SUM to everything holy shit. It's not a zero sum if you can exchange things for it. Right now you buy things in Bitcoin, right now you can buy things in other cryptos. The speculating here is the same speculation that drives the stock market, futures, commidities, etc.

You are just attempting to be intellectually superior but are clearly failing. How about you explain how cryptos are "zero-sum".

I'm guessing right now Bitcoin is at a critical value. It just needs to hold it for a while and not crash. The fear right now is that it's a bubble that bursts when the main argument is that it's a stable currency

In 2030 there will be small fringe groups of impoverished nocoiners holding signs on the street holding signs saying "It's just 1s and 0s", "Bring back paper money".

People will cross the road to avoid them.

>Right now you buy things in Bitcoin, right now you can buy things in other cryptos.

buying and trading are not the same thing

>the main argument is that bitcoin is a stable currency
kek, anyone making that argument is equally foolish. Bitcoin might be more stable in a decade or two.

>you realise people said the exact same thing about paper currency in the 17th century
Paper currency existed since the 11th century. It seems school's out for kids.

>It's not a zero sum if you can exchange things for it
You can't exchange labor for it. You are trading digital tokens for other digital tokens or fiat. If you can't pass basic education on what zero sum means, then don't argue with me, kid.

...

Modern fiat currencies are backed by debt and secured by governments wielding tremendous force to ensure those debts are paid. The strength of a fiat currency is rooted in the confidence of investors that its issuing nation continues to produce goods and services.

The value of Cryptocurrencies is rooted solely in speculator trading, with the exception of the rare asset-backed cryptocurrency, which will be the real future of currencies (asset-secured, limited, and anonymous), but don't attract as much attention because they can't be influenced as much by speculators.

ozgld.com/

I didn't say they were, you do realize that Bitcoin isn't solely used in trading right?? I mean holy fuck really? I clearly didn't realize buying and trading were the same. Again, you can purchase GOODS in Bitcoin. So how it is zero sum game if two people benefit from it's transaction?

Nigger I've bought gold bullion, silver bullion, and a nice sushi dinner with bitcoin, both of which I regret because the value of bitcoin has cone up so much since then.

The only reason why it isn't exactly as legitimate as paper money is because there isn't a government behind it forcing people to accept it as renumeration. Which is why people should start using it more, btw.

>You can't exchange labor for it

Actually you can. Hook an ASIC miner to an electric generator that is powered by manual labor and you're literally exchanging BTC for labor.

let the nocoiner stay poor and butthurt.

Paper currency not backed by anything except memes and a government that gets weaker by the day and has to bomb countries into using it has only existed since the 1970s

>go back in time and open a bank account
>back in the present try to withdraw accumulated funds
>ERROR YOU OWE THE BANK $10 MMM IN DELINQUENT INTEREST PAYMENTS FOR HOLDING YOUR MONEY
>bank seizes all of your assests including the time machine
>mfw they also seized my face collection

Explain

the whole universe is zero sum, matter is only transformed, neither created or destroyed. Stop being a nigger.

>labor is expended via mining of the blockchain to facilitate these trand actions
>no value or service is exchanged
Nigga wut

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-06/denmark-land-below-zero-where-negative-interest-rates-are-normal
Fuck fiat.

Just devil's advocate, most of history is also filled with constant wars and barbarian invasions, there is more to a failing economy than just using paper. We honestly can't judge pre-technological society and make comparisons to today, modern fiat may fail and it may not, we are a blip on the historical scale and nothing can compare.

nah, at 500,000 usd per bitcoin they'll finally buy

>So how it is zero sum game if two people benefit from it's transaction?

>Hey dude, I'll trade you my Venusaur for your Charizard
>Ok, let's trade!

Dude, Venusaur is a currency now!

It's totally a purchase and not a trade, trust me! I can walk into the comic store and trade Venusaur for an action figure, a comic book, hell even a costume!

If I can purchase actual goods with Venusaur cards, how is it not a zero sum game when both people benefit from that transaction?

Honestly they've already started accepting reality. Initially people were just laughing, now they're all saying it's "overvalued" and its "real price" is $100 or whatever since they realized its uses for less legal transactions, when they would have balked at the idea that some e-coin could be worth $100 5 years ago.

Look at this thread, there are clearly mentally unhinged people who still somehow think its worthless.

>Dude, Venusaur is a currency now!
Give me a call me if dealers starts selling weed for pokemon and I'll go all in.

>Actually you can. Hook an ASIC miner to an electric generator that is powered by manual labor and you're literally exchanging BTC for labor.
That's a side effect. The electricity isn't generated for just Bitcoins. Your example is like saying some retard who pounds worthless rocks is exchanging labor for food when the food is for the entire community.

Dude, books, statues and clothing are actual goods!

Venusaur is literally proven to be a currency because I can PURCHASE GOODS with it!

I finally decided to give cryptocurrency a try this year after years of regret watching the prices soar. I've made a very small profit but the fact is, Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme that aims to solve a problem that doesn't exist and all alt-coins are equally retarded.

Seriously, go read the white paper of any altcoin. It's more cringe worthy than middle management hiring some "motivational speaker" to throw around the words "synergy" and "diversity" for 90 minutes. What do they actually ACCOMPLISH? Nothing of value.

People like Fiat currency. People like having a central authority for their money.

You know what's fucking retarded? Sending someone money by typing in a giant string of numbers and then hoping it arrives to the right person. You know what else is retarded? Losing thousands and thousands of dollars (maybe millions?) because your hard drive shat itself and you have no way of recovering your private key.

You know what's awesome? Losing your credit card and then pulling up an app on your phone to instantly lock it in case it was stolen. You know what else is awesome? Getting a home loan from a bank, being able to recover funds if they're stolen, being able to issue chargebacks if a retailer rips you off.

Bitcoin is never going to be the "world currency" like some morons think it will. Fuck, I was trying to buy Bitcoin this week so I could get more ETH and it was a fucking chore. Coinbase was down, every other site wanted me to hold up a fucking piece of paper as if I was getting a mugshot taken after getting arrested and then took days to verify and very few exchanges accept debit card payments, instead opting for bank transfers which take days to clear. Are you fucking serious?

Furthermore, no one wants to actually USE a currency that can lose as much as 20% of its value in a single day. "Oh... Guess it's nothing but cereal this week since BTC lost it's value over night"

Am I missing something? Is there a market somewhere I can trade pokemon for clothes?

Just walk into a comic book store, obviously you can't make a purchase with Venusaur just anywhere quite yet, but that's because it hasn't caught on enough!

Just walk into a comic book store with a handful of Venusaur and start purchasing my dude

Literally cars will never replace the horse drawn carriage the post

Agree with everything you say, but Bitcoin will prosper not by people using complicated Bitcoin itself, it will be killer apps that look and feel like Paypal discretely using BTC in the background. I'm invested in one that is opening in ICO today, Metalpay, that is rumored to be THE killer app for Bitcoin payments.

What, just because you can only make a Venusaur purchase in specific establishments scares you? Don't be a pussy dude

This guy gets it.

The current M2 measure of the United States is on the order of 13 trillion dollars. The vast majority of that are just 1s and 0s on various bank systems.

In the US alone there is about 850.7 billion USD in circulation.

But really what the fuck are you talking about?

Stealing this. Go Flyers. Some day I will purchase you with my crypto earnings and we will get a franchise goalie and several Stanley Cups.

Before God I swear this creed.

People like you are the same people who lost their minds about the:
Printing press
cotton gin
Cars

You'll be kicking yourself in 10 years when all the shit you love about fiat is done by crypto better

You are the most immature, blind person in here.... Please, don't ever come back.

>"Oh... Guess it's nothing but cereal this week since BTC lost it's value over night"

Cash sitting in your wallet is losing value over time. With interest rates so low money in a savings account is also losing value over time.

The guy I replied to was arguing that crypto isn't a zero sum because "both people benefit" from the trade. Which is fucking retarded.

False equivalence my dude. Please kys

Learn what zero sum means before using the term, PLEASE. You are so god damn cocky, wrong and annoying.

>Hay has actual value and can be cultivated easily
>horses and carriages can be made anywhere
>why would we get our fuel from thousands of miles away and all own something so complicated that we don't know how it works
>how inefficient it will never catch on!

>this commodity can be purchased

>that means it's a currency!

yeah okay dude

>You are the most immature, blind person in here.... Please, don't ever come back.
Not an argument. Can anyone actually argue shit here or is it summer? Oh wait, it is summer.

>Learn what zero sum means before using the term, PLEASE. You are so god damn cocky, wrong and annoying.
We got another kid who doesn't know what zero sum is. Go ahead and tell how Bitcoin creates wealth. Go ahead and tell how usomg Bitcoin isn't me just getting money from some other shmuck for nothing.

It seems like everyone's here an uneducated moron!

1) People have literally bought lambos with Bitcoins. 2) I know several developers that are paid in bitcoins.

You say zero sum all the fucking time. Do you know what supply and demand is? Do you know what Economic man is? Have you even read anything about economics beyond your intro econ class? Cocky and stupid. Fuck off.

All the people employed by exchanges and news orgs are creating wealth. It's like the internet. People have to figure out how to use it to create wealth.

>1) People have literally bought lambos with Bitcoins. 2) I know several developers that are paid in bitcoins.
People convert Bitcoins to fiat. Labor for that Lambo was priced in fiat. Try again.

>You say zero sum all the fucking time. Do you know what supply and demand is? Do you know what Economic man is? Have you even read anything about economics beyond your intro econ class? Cocky and stupid. Fuck off.
>All these buzzwords but not a single proof that Bitcoin creates wealth
Another moron. Can we get some actual adults in this thread who understands what zero sum means?

>There's an actual nocoiner ITT showing everyone how fucking retarded he is
When will they learn, lads?

dude invest in Venusaur now

What's the fucking relation to pokemon you waste of oxygen?
If you could easily purchase goods with pokemon it would be a currency, yes, but it's not.

What is the inherent value of PayPal?

hurr durr, very funny...

Except unlike cars which actually provide a benefit over horses (faster, comfort, shelter from the elements, control) Bitcoin offers literally ZERO benefits over fiat currency.

In fact, it's contradictory to currency to begin with because no one wants to spend an asset that is rising in value. If you had $100 in your wallet and you wanted to buy a $50 widget and I told you your $100 would be worth $200 tomorrow would you buy it? Only if you're mentally retarded.

Your analogy doesn't work because it assumes Fiat is a horse and Bitcoin is a car. The fact is, Fiat is the car and Bitcoin is the horse.

Lets see, today I went shopping and bought a whole bunch of stuff by simply tapping my card against a reader. Literally takes 3 seconds. Please explain how Bitcoin is better than this?

The amount of money on the card is stable (I know I"m not going to randomly lose $100 overnight thanks to a handful of whales) and if my card was skimmed and someone makes fraudulent purchases I just ring up the bank and get my money back.

Sure, in some cases you could make the argument that the government is corrupt or the economy is fucked, etc, but in that case Bitcoins are the absolute least of your worries. Farmers aren't going to trade actual food for a bunch of 1's and 0's if they're dirt poor and you're starving.

>If you could easily purchase goods with pokemon it would be a currency, yes, but it's not.

listen dude, you don't seem to understand this
I can walk into my local comic book store buck naked with only a Venusaur in my hand

I can give that Venusaur to the guy behind the counter and I can walk out in a Batman costume with a comic book in my hand. Please explain to me how I haven't made a Venusaur purchase for real life goods in that scenario. Seriously.

The inherent value of PayPal is whatever people deem its usefulness to facilitate transaction of goods and services around the world.

The inherent value of Bitcoin is whatever people are willing to lose on a crypto exchange. No goods or labor are exchanged. No wealth created. Zero sum.

>I can walk into my local comic book store buck naked with only a Venusaur in my handI can give that Venusaur to the guy behind the counter and I can walk out in a Batman costume with a comic book in my hand.
You can actually do that? Where?

Humans had a problem with money and poverty an decided to invent something to fix it. Screen cap this shit and in 20 years you'll remember I'm right

convenience and low fees relative to alternatives

I believe I have just unveiled the contradiction in your argument. I will accept your apology in advance since I'm sure it will take you a few hours to understand.

lol, ok mate. Please do tell me the last time you woke up and your bank account lost 20% over night. Unless you live in a third world shit hole this isn't something to worry about.

Also, if you choose to have your savings sitting in a low interest bank account that's your fault.

I bought an investment property instead of just leaving money in a bank.