Lets discuss Yugoslavia, Veeky Forums. I'm kinda curious about this country

Lets discuss Yugoslavia, Veeky Forums. I'm kinda curious about this country.

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What do you want to discuss about it?

>Land of
>South
>Slavs

>they haven't taken the Balkanpill
Jej

it was a neat country, people werent rich but the majority got a place to live and a job to do unless they went out of their way to be a problem

it wasnt a welfare state, it was a honest attempt to make socialism work, the economy actualy working for the good of the people and the organised people working to build the economy was both ideologicaly and practicaly the point of the whole system, and in a low budget way it worked, even if it hinged a lot on yugoslavias position in the nonaligned movement and the market it provided as well as titos ability to get favorable credit from the west

there were problems of course, but compared to most cold war socialist states it wasnt half bad, there was even a little economic boom in the 70is

but then certain critical problems just began to manifest, there was no way to truly articulate them without being labeled a dissident or a nationalist or worse, things like the 1974 constitution that granted a degree of economic and financial autonomy to federal republics was never realy respected, shit that happened from 1945 to 1948 never got talked about, belgrade became more and more dominant after titos death and serbs kind of did their best to dominate and impose themselves under the notions of 'bratstvo i jedinstvo', and then milošević came along and the party split up because slovene and croat party refused to submit

then all sorts of crap went on, votes failed, party members did mass walkouts at meetings and congresses, croatia got dissarmed, referendums were held, some states separated, people were being organised and brainwashed all over, and war broke out, and that whole story

Aren't Bosnians just Muslim Croats?

Balkans are full of primitive people stuck in Paleolithic?

No we knew that.

>still haven't taken the Balkanpill

Veeky Forums hates balks more than Germans why?

No Momcilo I AM the balkanpill

>tfw grandpa somehow got involved in the communist party before 1940 and was full blown committed to it even until he died in 1999
>somehow my dad gets involved in the 1970s Croatian nationalist counter culture and is borderline full blown Ustashi

It's a weird feel

well, thats kind of problematic, technicaly yes, at the time of ottoman conquest those were lands populated by people who declared themselves croats, but then again those same people are originaly croatised dinaridics of one sort of another, croatian and bosnian populations have been there for a long long time, with a lot of admixture of course

Wtf are dinarics some people say alpine/med
Others say Nordic/med shits confusing

>the economy actualy working for the good of the people and the organised people working to build the economy
Lol.
Read 'New Class' by Djilas and then come back.
>there were problems of course, but compared to most cold war socialist states it wasnt half bad
Pic related.

No one knows

they are a set of phenotypes that exist in the dinarid region

Where do they come from? researchers say it's Nordic/med

Memes.

They predate Indo-Europeans.

If that isn't masterrace idk what is

Yeah, but Croats are just Catholic Serbs.

Simply untrue but they are similar

Not true, Croats and Serbs were different tribes and became different nations.
We are highly similar obviously, because we are both Slavic, Christian and live right next to each other. We never diverged as much as some Slavs.

bunch of commies executing chetniks

Capitalist propaganda

...

>Everything that disagrees with me is just porky propaganda!

t. /leftypol/

Yugoslavia was an IMF slave so pathetic it had to ship out its own unemployed as expats to other more successful countries so as to buff down its own sky high unemployment rates!

Collectivization is shit in every form.

>Yugoslavia was an IMF slave so pathetic it had to ship out its own unemployed as expats to other more successful countries so as to buff down its own sky high unemployment rates!

so what you are saying is nothing has changed in 25 years of capitalism

I bet you have a statue of Marx

no, but you described todays situation exactly

Do you truly believe in a classless moneyless society I remember being 12 too son

No he didn't, and you would know that if you ever bothered to crack open this.

You "people" see economics as a fairy tale outside of your marxist circlejerk fantasy land though.

Commies really aren't human dude they have this attitude where you don't have the imagination or spirit for communism and that we are the ones that are brainwashed,but I've come to the conclusion that they are lazy and souless a scary combo.

Do you have a source for that pic?

The man looks like he lividly hates humanity.

the economy was good until 1968. tito failed to implement market reforms that were being called for by liberals within the communist party (they were also pushed out of the party after that i think). that, plus failure to implement democratic reforms at the same time led to the slow decline of yugoslavia over the next 2 decades. by 88 it had gone to shit and that generation was far poorer than it's parents. "age old antagonisms" only resurfaced as a result of the economic collapse.

Even your own pic doesn't say many good things for Yugoslavia. Being marginally better than Eastern Bloc shitholes doesn't change the fact that $4500/year per capita GNI in 1989 is still quite pathetic when talking any non-socialist country. As comparison, West Germany's per capita GNI was over $20000 by 1989.

And considering Yugoslavia was collapsing in every other way by 1989...

>>there were problems of course, but compared to most cold war socialist states it wasnt half bad
>Pic related.

No one was arguing about Germany.

Shit commie union for shit commie people. They deserve hell on Earth and it seems that's what they'll get.

"Problems" meaning the entire country collapses into its own shitpile after Tito's death amidst failed market reforms?

Yeah, that's a bit of a problem.

Yugoslavia also had billions of dollars in foreign aid from US without that they would've been an Armenian-tier country

Checked

The reforms were very successful. The problem was nationalists, who became too powerful and couldn't be stopped by the time someone tried to stop them.

Are you retarted?

Funny how I never see sources for those "billions in aid".

>what is the Marshall plan
Did you learn how to read yesterday or something

That was early 50's. And Yugoslavia received nothing compared to Western Germany, UK and France.
Aid from 60's till the end was some 3.5 billion $.
I don't see those mythical billions anywhere, except in half-assed arguments.
And about the argument of the other guy, he's kinda right. Today, Croatia is as indebted as entire Yugoslavia was, when you convert dollar value.
Yugoslav economic collapse was in major part caused by political collapse. These two worked together.
Same in Soviet case.

There's literally a whole book on it now I know you are clinically retarted
etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=bgsu1206322169&disposition=inline
I bet you're Albanian

And there's easily verifiable data I provided you refuse to comment on, using the non-argument "t-there's a book!". I never claimed Yugoslav economy or system was perfect or great, I just claimed economic problems aggravated political problems, which in turn aggravated economic problems. These two worked in synergy.
I'm not even a communist sympathizer, I despise commies.
Now get off your high horse and learn how to discuss properly.

people were guaranteed an apartment and easy laid back life doing simple shit like handing out newspapers. people who wanted to hustle and make some extra deutschemarks doing whatever did that too.

now if you even get a job you're stuck living with your parents and everyone else under the age of 35 fights tooth and nail to leave, old grannies renting a spare bedroom for 35 euros a night during the summer are considered a growing upper middle class

but no it was Yugoslavia that was an unbearable hell hole our glorious robber barons are on our side because they share our ethnicity

really tantalizes my trachea

Yugoslavia was more egalitarian. But don't forget, those who built this paradise we live in now, they are mostly former communists. Really makes you think huh.

Wtf was your point then Retard I said Yugoslavia was a failing state and it couldn't survive due to multi ethnic nationalities don't be mad you lost an argument on a underwater Haitian teeth juggling forum son.

That fresco, made by those who blessed Arkan as he went to Bosnia to develop his home appliances import business.
Please grow up, you're a part of the problem, just like "y-you could sleep on the bench!" crowd.
My point was Yugoslavia was not ideal, but it wasn't some totalitarian doomed-to-fail hell as some modern or contemporary critics pointed out.
It could've easily overcome it's problems, but there were few people who could succesfully reform it. That's Tito's fault though, on that I agree.

That's exactly what I'm saying you autys also Serbians autismifying out whenever they can and too much socialism with not enough productive people

Veeky Forums is comprised of pseudo smarts

Okay but try to write more coherent posts then.
Yugo socialism wasn't that bad, it developed a country that was undeveloped and then totally devastated in WW2.
But liberalization should've occured earlier IMO. Slow change starting in late 60's would work well. Today we would be a relevant and developed European nation.
Instead we got pseudo-colonies where majority of youth dreams of running away.

Understandable what part you from?

Montenegro.

Interesting country if all the balkanites,formed a union I believe it would be an amazing country but sadly it is mission impossible.Way too much division and Serbs will always think they own everything i do concur Kosovo is their clay though.

>i do concur Kosovo is their clay though.
When the termites consume the foundation of the house and the fire chief condemns it you're better off eating the loss instead of punching the chief in the face and insisting you're let back into the house.

(No offense intended in calling kosovars termites kek)

Honestly truly pity the people who live in a literally non anything like Kosovo

Well it's either that or shit we have today. We're too small on our own to have any meaningful measure of independence.
Not like Yugoslavia would sit on the same table with USA and Russia. But we would have more pull, and more ability to develop.
This right now, this is just slow death.

At least the tourists are making you money lol

In Montenegrin case we sold half of coast to Russian mobsters, Westerners and Arabs.
Small elite profits from this. Population only marginally.

Most hotels are owned by foreign investors and Turks are buying whatever they can on the coast. Other hotels built during cummy times are in a state of decay.

Some old people are making some shekels taking a risk and opening their homes to drug addled degenerate bongs trying to vacation for a month on a budget of a thousand euros though. lol

Croatia?

Dalmatia actually :^)

I feel the proud illyro Iranian Venetian blood flowing in my veins.

Harmful reminder the all Balkans are masterrace hence the Balkanpill a pill so advanced that /Pol/ and Veeky Forums haven't heard of it lol

Sad!

Eh, you would know. My acquaintances from Zagreb and elsewhere told me same.
Wherever you go same shit. Only Croatia is historically more developed. Montenegro did develop a bit since commie times, but at it's roots this is a failed state. Mafia and government literally overlap.

Why did we get cucked by Slavs in the 7th century then?

Memes? Also hitler projected his jeolousy of Slavs a lot it's really transparent I think everyone gives Slavs crap because of east squatting Russians and they equate all of Slavic population t pollack Russian brutes

I heard a story of a Korean owned factory in Serbia telling their employees to wear diapers instead of taking bathroom breaks. I believe shit like that out of hand without even bothering to verify at this point.

Who knows.
But when Russians bought local aluminium smelter, workers loved it, they treated them good.
Heard same for Chinese employers in Serbia.

I haven't heard about diapers, but while the story was virals it did seem like Koreans tried to do here the same thing you hear western companies do in China.

Shock Therapy was a mistake

Ok Veeky Forums help me out here.

If we for a second imagine the impossible, that is that Serbs won't chimp out at the first possible time, what could've saved Yugoslavia?

What kind of reforming/alliance would save it when the Soviet block came crushing down later on?

>Kosovo is their clay though.

Serb nigger here and frankly Kosovo is fucking useless since is basically nothing but Albanians now. We'd either need to drive them out or go full Hitler again to even have that as a working part of the country and nobody outside of our retarded presidents and brainwashed morons wants that.

The sooner the Kosovo myth dies the better we'll be for it but that probably won't happen until we chimp out again and we get BTFO twice as hard. Think WWII but on a smaler scale.

Hopefully Vojvodina gets independence then and we get back to Hungary, I'd rather be under Hungarians again then endure Serb government.

It WAS being saved. Ante Marković's reforms were being implemented and they were very successful. The country had just started recovering from the economic crisis of the '70s and '80s, but then nationalists got in power and you know the rest.

photius.com/countries/yugoslavia_former/economy/yugoslavia_former_economy_the_reforms_of_1990.html

"Yugoslavia's economy was falling apart" is a myth pushed by nationalists (from all sides) to justify them shitting everything up.

Semi-protectionist market, confederatism, limiting military spending, actually investing in promising economic projects (Croatia, Slovenia...) and not pouring obscene amounts of money into backwater cash sinks (Kosovo, Macedonia...), but going for grants and competitive development in those areas.

And keeping a tighter leash on UDBA, I'm tired of old Christians and their spawn crying about it.

Unrelated question but how do people like you speak English so well? From browsing Veeky Forums?
As far as I've experienced every single slav/balkanigger I've met in my life has sucked dick at English whether they've had a good education or not

>Capitalist propaganda
What? Do you even know what propaganda is?

Probably because I was more enthusiastic about learning English than most balkaniggers are. I started out as soon as gained sentience because I wanted to understand cartoons and play video games so at like age 6-7 I was already able to at least understand English when I hear it. Then if you wanted to read any cool books like LOTR instead of just boring commie/nationalist shit you were force fed in school you'd need to go and buy the original versions from a smuggler or something so I started reading English books earlier on too.

Then internet became a think and shitposting on forums cemented it I guess?

Most other people don't give a shit about learning English so they just learn later in life because they need it for work or just learn it to be "good enough" so they can bitch about Americans online. In fact most don't even do that much, half the people I know don't know a word of English, and I'm like the enthusiastic retard who's learning his 3rd language (German now with English and Russian being the first two).

I guess learning English these days means submitting to the will of Vatican and Obama's Reptile People or something I don't know Serbs are retarded.

ceausescu was such a little rascal wasn't he

So what caused the nationalistic sperg overload in the '90?

I'm genuinely asking I'm not from the Balkans I have no idea all I know is Yugoslavia was a semi decent Communist Country and instead of dissolving peacefully like the rest everyone decided it's best to kill each other?

What happened?

Was it autism?

bumparoni taroni

Balkanlars would be an extraordinary people if they weren't focused on killing each other every other hour

It was very much autism.That explains the lot of it

>So what caused the nationalistic sperg overload in the '90?
What caused the nationalistic sperg overload in the in the '30s in Germany and Italy? That's a rhetorical question, but the answer is myths: the Italian "mutilated victory" and the German "stab in the back" myth, among others.

Serbs believed they were being unfairly treated in Kosovo. They thought Kosovo's autonomy should be reduced or outright removed. There were myths that "Kosovo is the heart of Serbia" and such. Look up the battle of Kosovo field if you're curios.

On the other hand, Croats had been sperging out for decades already. Starting in 1967 (the Declaration on the Status and Name of the Croatian Literary Language -- a myth that the "Croatian language" (no such thing) was being repressed in favor of "Serbian" (no such thing either)) and culminating in the 1971 "Croatian Spring", they were constantly pushing for (often, but not always) unreasonable changes. And all of this was sprinkled with constant nationalist terrorism, such as hijacking or crashing planes, bombing embassies and killing ambassadors. The 1975 bombing of LaGuardia Airport (in New York) is attributed to Croatian nationalists, and six emigres were tried for plotting terrorist attacks in Sydney. It should be noted that these were NOT supported by the Croatian communists.

When Tito died in 1980, "brotherhood and unity" was still very much alive, as evidenced by the Hajduk Split - Crvena Zvezda football match. When the announcement of his death was made during the match, the players stopped playing and the crowd started singing "comrade Tito, we swear to you", a popular song. Nowadays, nationalists are pushing the narrative that "Yugoslavia was doomed from the start", that it couldn't possibly work and so on. This is false. Post-WW2 Yugoslavia was FOUNDED upon the different nations working together, to defeat a common foe.

Anyway, this is very incoherent, so if you didn't understand something, please ask. I'll probably answer tomorrow (though I'm not sure how long threads stay up here, I don't come to Veeky Forums very often).

Ok but the German chimp out makes sense in a way because life in post WWI Germany was literally beyond shit tier with the hyper inflation and stuff so you have a moron come and start screaming about the "JOOOOOSSSSSS!!!" so he effectively gives a nation of angry people a scapegoat.

Why did the myths of Kosovo and Croatian "oppression" gain ground so rapidly to lead to such a massive chimp out when as far as I see there were reforms put into place and the living situation was getting better?

Also what was the deal with the Bosnian part of the country? Was it just "MUSLIMS GET OUT REEEEEEEE" /pol/'s wet dream come true or something more?

>Nowadays, nationalists are pushing the narrative that "Yugoslavia was doomed from the start", that it couldn't possibly work and so on. This is false. Post-WW2 Yugoslavia was FOUNDED upon the different nations working together, to defeat a common foe.

Where you from? Here in Serbia there are two main trains of tough. You have the hyper-nationalist who are the stereotypical "SURHBIAH STONK KILL THE CROAT IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT" who put the blame on everyone else betraying Serbia and "stabbing us in the back".

Then you have the other hyper-communists side who are convinced that Yugoslavia was the best most awesome most powerful country in the world so it was all a conspiracy from America/UK/Vatican/Germany/Jews/Gays/Alien lizard people to destroy it and bring it down because it was too powerful.

Of course both of this is effectively bullshit but try convincing a brainwashed idiot that he has been brainwashed.

>red star
>on a flag with a red stripe

no wonder they collapsed

Croatia and Slovenia were industrialized but were butthurt that they had to share the wealth with other Yugoslav Republics. Basically, rich white suburban republicans who deserved to be home invaded by thugs who only wanted something to eat.

>Why did the myths of Kosovo

In 1981, there were mass protests by Kosovars (Kosovo Albanians) due to perceived inequality. While the Serbs were somewhat privileged (e.g. they held many leadership positions, despite being a minority), the Kosovars went full autist and started rioting, demanding the creation of an Albanian republic (Kosovo was an autonomous province within SR Serbia) that would also include parts of Macedonia and Montenegro. Their ultimate goal would be unification with Albania, and the protests were led by supporters of Enver Hoxha (though the last sentence should be taken with a grain of salt -- I'm getting that info from a 1985 book by the Communist Party's official historian).

Now, why did they protest in the first place? You bring up an interesting point here:
>life in post WWI Germany was literally beyond shit tier

Life in Kosovo was also shit tier, and it was mostly the Kosovars' fault. The richer republics (not just Croatia and Slovenia) were constantly pouring money into Kosovo and not getting any returns because Kosovars refused to cooperate and integrate.

Wikipedia says that the University of Priština "specialized in liberal arts, in particular in Albanology, which could hardly secure work except in bureaucracy or local cultural institutions, especially outside of Kosovo" (sourced to the book "Kosovo: How Myths and Truths Started a War", which I'd never heard of before, but the title is fairly accurate).

The 1981 protests were suppressed, but this gave fuel to the Serbian nationalists. In 1986, the SANU memorandum was published (look it up) claiming that Serbs are being oppressed all over Yugoslavia, especially in Kosovo, which was very much NOT true. This then gave fuel to Slovenian and Croatian nationalists.

To be continued...

>and Croatian "oppression"
This was mostly answered above (at least regarding the '80s), but in the '70s, Croatian nationalism was somewhat justified. Yugoslavia was fairly centralized, and some just wanted more decentralization. Then the nazis took over and fugged everything up, but decentralization did happen, in the 1974 Yugoslav Constitution. The language stuff was bullshit, though.

>Was it just "MUSLIMS GET OUT REEEEEEEE" /pol/'s wet dream come true or something more?

There are several hypotheses about the origin of Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims). Nationalists claim that they're Serbs or Croats who converted because they were pussies, and there's also a theory that they were a heretic Christian sect, possibly related to the Bogumils, who would rather convert to Islam than either Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy.

Now, as to why Serbs hate(d) Muslims: Serbia was for centuries occupied by the Ottoman empire (see: Battle of Kosovo field). Bosniaks used to be called "Turks" before WW1 I believe (it may have even been before WW2). During the Bosnian war, Serbs again referred to them as "Turks", which you can see in nationalist music videos. So, basically, Serbs hated their former Ottoman oppressors, and they equated the Ottomans to all Muslims.

Again, it's probably somewhat incoherent, so feel free to ask if you need clarification regarding something.

>Where you from?
Dalmatia.

Young generations in Croatia have pretty good English, thanks to the internet and general cultural imperialism. How old were the ones you talked to?

Hey, good posts. Serb here. Allow me to expand on the topic.

The constitution of 1974 did decentralize the country, however the constitution itself was very poor in quality. Firstly it was the 2nd longest constitution ever written (1st spot belonging to India). A constitution is a set of fundamental principles on which a legal system is based on. It should never be so long.

It gave Serbia's provinces near republic status in all but name and secession rights. This effectively castrated Serbia in federal affairs (until it didn't). However many Croatian politicians bitched about it saying Serbia was even more powerful. On the contrary Serbia's two provinces were always opposed to Belgrade. And then Milosevic used the federal constitution to his advantage when he came to power and organized the downfall of their governments into the hands of his allies/puppets. (In Montenegro too, but Milo still being in power is so fucking funny and sad).
The constitution only caused more problems and it didn't satisfy either Croats or Serbs, and eventually lead to exactly what it was made to purposefully avoid (Serbia being in a position of more power than other republics).

Now let's talk for a second about the state constitutions that the republics changed in 1990.
Slovenia and Croatia changed them in anticipation of their secession.
While the Serbian constitution of 1990 was hastily made under the pressure of impending democratization and multi-party elections, but drafted in such a way to keep Milosevic in power in Serbia.

Getting information on this topic was surprisingly difficult. My opinion is what i managed to gather from remarks of professors during constitutional law lectures, the way some parts of the textbook, and a few newspaper articles i found online.
It was for the most part drafted by Ratko Markovic. However the constitution itself goes against everything he views favorably in a system of government.
Cont.

Milosevic won 46% of the votes but received over 75% of the seats in parliament.
No upper house. No decentralization. No regionalism. Despite prof. Markovic absolutely adoring Italian regionalism, decentralized government and bicameral legislature. From an article i've found it's implied that he was very irritated when his colleges inquired about why the constitution that was for the most part drafted by him was so diametrically opposed to his opinions.
A regionalized Serbia and Montenegro also never happened. (Montenegro, Vojvodina, Kosovo and other regions in Serbia proper all being equally autonomous).

With the rise of Serbian and Croatian nationalism that coincided, as well as secessionist leanings in Slovenia, Milosevic told the Serbs in Croatia that THE NAZIS/USTASE ARE COMING, GET READY FOR CONCENTRATION CAMPS.

Also, taking out major nationalistic politicians within the communist party contributed to the whole "Serbs have been oppressed" narrative.
The assassination (yes, it was) of Penezic (Krcun), and the political exile of Rankovic.
A popular acronym spread. MORAVA, AVAROM (Ako se vrati Aleksandar Rankovic ode Marsal) - If Aleksandar Rankovic returns the Marshal's done for.

On the topic of Slavic Muslims (by nationality). The Bogumils were not an ethnicity, they were a sect that became prominent among nominally Catholic/Orthodox populations in Bosnia.
The Bosniaks were seen by Serbs as Serbs. However, they were seen as worse than Turks. They were the betrayers, because they wanted to become like Turks.
Croats viewed them as Croats.
However they are both somewhat justified in their assertion of Bosniak origins. Because medieval sources name Croats and Serbs as major tribes, and talk about a bunch of small, irrelevant tribes (7 tribes in Bulgaria and so on).
On the other hand National identity, is a feeling, a social construct.
youtube.com/watch?v=QWWEfplyM9A
Here's Zizek.
Cont.

The Bosniak national identity was for the most part caused by how they were viewed by their Christian brethren. The rejection, the posturing of Orthodox Serbs (primarily) and Catholic Croats (to a lesser extent) that they are superior to the lowly converts.
Explains why Bosniaks still view Turkey as their greatest foreign ally.
They are generally not fitting of the muslim label. They are only nominally religious, they use the religion more as an element of national identity. The Serbs do this to. Most people are not what you'd call "practicing Christians", but they will shout MUH ORTHODOXY.