can someone explain the Jesus meme? Nigga used to be a carpenter, how did he into enlightenment in order to mind game other bitches into astonishment? Was it fasting? Meditation? DMT?
Also his quotes are completely subversive and ridiculous so I know he and probably his saints were in on the meme and milking it. Example:
>Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; but I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. "But if God so clothes the grass in the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, how much more will He clothe you?
So he was just a Buddhism For Western Normies salesman? What did he encounter or do in India to be able to think and preach so subversively
Oliver Brooks
In a religious studies graduate program here; all religious studies scholars and historians can agree on with any real certainty about Jesus of Nazareth is that he was the central figure of a 1st c. apocalyptic movement, had some association with John the Baptist, and was executed by the Romans during the reign of Pilate.
In antiquity people didn't really have the same concept of retelling history that we do now; particularly when it came to writing biographies of holy men, saints, etc. Whether something in the hagiography factually, iron-clad happened according to eyewitnesses wasn't nearly as important as imparting the lesson they wanted to express. For a hypothetical example, say a community reveres a long-dead saint as a symbol of bravery. When writing a hagiography of that saint, to hammer home his bravery a monk writes a story about him saving a girl from a wild lion by getting between them and being blessed with an aura that repelled the beast.It's hard for modern audiences to wrap their heads around, including me, but they didn't really see that as dishonest.
There's also pseudepigrapha. Say you're a random monk and believe you've directly received teachings from your god that need to be shared, but know that nobody will take monk #453 seriously on it. You'd write out the text, attribute the authorship to a famous saint or biblical figure, then pretend to "discover" it. Hell, maybe you believe that it was that saint or figure speaking to you directly via prayer and you're just being honest about the author. The "discovery" then gets accepted as authentic and incorporated into some bishop's canon list, and eventually a version of a bible. See a good portion of Paul's letters.
If anyone has any questions about early Christianity I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability.
Tyler Parker
How is anything that He taught comparable to Buddhism?
Isaiah King
There was nothing particularly subversive about Jesus' preaching. In the end, his rhetoric was probably less radical than John the Baptist's.
The difference is that he maintained a close inner circle of apostles to spread the message after his death.
Angel Hughes
parables are good because each one can understand them according to his intellect
Blake Long
Do you mean in comparison to other contemporary apocalyptic Jewish movements, or in terms of how the Romans would've viewed it? If the former maybe you're right, if the latter definitely not.
The texts depict him as preaching about a "Kingdom of God" (aka, not Rome), exorcising a swarm of demons named Legion at a time when it still only referred to the Roman military units (legion as a synonym for "many" is a medieval French development), storming into the Jewish Temple and practically starting a riot, having an antagonistic relationship with the Sanhedrin, etc. There's a sprinkling of passages that paint Rome in a good light, but they're largely believed to be later interpolations by early Christians trying to put as much space between them and Jews as possible and suck up to the Romans after the failed Jewish Revolt led to a brutal, empire-wide crackdown on Judaism.
Christian Jackson
>telling people their sins were forgiven >not subversive
jesus was so hardcore that the kikes had him executed for the things he was saying. think about how badly you need to piss people off for them to literally want to kill you just for talking.
Isaiah Jenkins
How exactly is stating forgivness of sins subversive?
Was it a way of telling people their actions were wrong but could be forgiven and in doing so made people realize that certain actions are actually wrong?
Josiah Sanchez
He was telling the Jews they were interpreting Gods will incorrectly and that they were doing pretty much the exact opposite of what he wanted. The Pharasees saw him as a direct threat to their authority, they had a good thing going and some cult leader was going around telling people not to listen to them.
Aaron Garcia
only god has authority to forgive sins which is why they had the whole temple sacrifice system. when jesus went around forgiving people's sins he was asserting his divinity; imagine if someone hit you and then some random guy shows up and says to your attacker "it's ok you're forgiven." that random guy is either god or a massive asshole.
Robert Miller
>How exactly is stating forgivness of sins subversive? If I went around preaching that peoples criminal acts and debts are forgiven, and they started acting like that meant something, it'd be pretty subversive.
James Kelly
But original sin is a Christian idea that neither the Jews nor the Romans believed in.
Landon Gonzalez
he said criminal acts and debts which are separate issues from original sin
Jaxson Perez
Jesus, or user?
Benjamin White
What do you all know about John the Baptist. Didn't a gnostic sect hail him as the tire messiah? (Two part question)
Noah Cooper
He was the son of God...
Chase Howard
>legion as a synonym for "many" is a medieval French development In English they something along the lines of "our name is legion, for we are many."
What exactly was that passage in pre-medieval French?
Mason Hall
It meant they didn't have to submit to the authority of the corrupt Jewish priesthood. There was a new agreement with God.
Evan Williams
>imagine if someone hit you and then some random guy shows up and says to your attacker "it's ok you're forgiven." that random guy is either god or a massive asshole. Well yeah what i meant is that isn't it possible that could have lead to people just doing barbaric shit often and then saying LOL ITS OKAY IM FORGIVEN. Why did that not happen?
Colton Jones
be forgiven is contingent upon responding to jesus, he didn't go around forgiving everyone for everything and in fact jesus had more to say about hell than any of the old testament prophets.
Isaiah Edwards
"YOUR sins are forgiven", NOT "I forgave your sins".
But hey, according to your logic. THE DISCIPLES ARE ALSO DIVINE. According to:
John 20:23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.
So the Disciples are Gods, right?
Carter Taylor
David is the begotten Son of God
Wyatt Cox
Fuck off mudslime
Easton Ramirez
Now let's be nice.
Adrian Clark
Are you a girl?
James Murphy
>So the Disciples are Gods, right? No, only Jesus, God made flesh.
Ethan Gomez
A hairy man. But yeah, let's be nice and follow Jesus example.
Levi Barnes
The Disciples have the authority to forgive sins.
Bentley Clark
What school are you in? I'm quickly becoming fascinated with theology and I've been thinking about pursuing it academically
But I do know that saying "the Father is Jesus" is heresy, if I take literally.
Ryan Richardson
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all make up the entity known as God.
Andrew Walker
They're all 1/3 god?
Bentley Martin
All fully God.
>In Trinitarian doctrine, God exists as three persons or hypostases, but is one being, having a single divine nature
Read the wiki entry about it if you want to know more.
Jonathan Howard
Fully God can't die.
Agree?
Jacob Gonzalez
>>Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; but I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. "But if God so clothes the grass in the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, how much more will He clothe you?
>By following God and doing what is right you can achieve moral heights beyond your wildest imaginations >user calls this subversive 2k years later
Chase Nguyen
But yeah, I don't want to kill the thread. Let's leave this for now. Thanks for civilized discussion. You're the MVP.
Jack Williams
>Fully God can't die. >Agree? Agreed. >but Christ was fully God and he died No, his innocent human form died. His divine soul conquered death.
Ethan Rogers
This will never make sense to me. God is the creator right? How does a father and son and "holy spirit" create? Last time I checked, it took man, women and energy to create. my point is that the woman is completely neglected from the Christian trinity, why? This coming from a guy btw.
Jayden Russell
Well it's not an esoteric idea that popped out of nowhere. It was made to reconcile the fact that the Bible mentions the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as all being divine entities. It also says there is one God. It has nothing to do the the energy of creation, it's a doctrine specifically to reconcile the facts the Bible gives. Three divine entities. One God.
Samuel Butler
Still doesn't answer my question.
Why is the mother neglected from the trinity? You have the father, and the son (or the child), but no mother...just this "holy spirit".
Samuel Allen
>Why is the mother neglected from the trinity? You have the father, and the son (or the child), but no mother...just this "holy spirit".
Parker Ward
No I'm not..it's a legitimate question no Christian can ever seem to answer..
Chase Mitchell
Well for starters why do you think Mary should be in the Trinity? You are aware that the trinity is specifically to reconcile what is said in the Bible and isn't just made up nonsense to sound good right?
Explain to me what the theological basis is for having a Mother in the Trinity, because you sound like a stoner retard who has no idea what the fuck he's talking about and just saying shit like "If there's a Father and a Son there should totally be a Mother, maaaaan"
Adrian Garcia
Nah, it's valid.
"What do you call a mother of a kitten?" "A cat of course"
Camden James
>You are aware that the trinity is specifically to reconcile what is said in the Bible and isn't just made up nonsense to sound good right? >You are aware that the trinity is specifically to reconcile what is said in the Bible >isn't just made up nonsense to sound good right? >made up nonsense to sound good
Kayden Gonzalez
Also, "specifically" is wrong. There are nowhere in the bible that said those three are one.
And yes, this is according to the most ancient bible manuscripts.
Samuel Cooper
>There are nowhere in the bible that said those three are one. But it does say that all three are separate and divine and that there is only one God. You do the math.
Juan Bailey
Ever heard of Melchizedek? The bible said he has "no beginning, no end, no father, no mother".
Which is totally divine if you ask me.
James Ward
Nice projecting, maaan...
>why do you think Mary should be in the Trinity?
Not sure why you brought her up, but since you did, I'll just say the notion of a virgin birth is quite nonsensical also, along with this whole trinity business.
>Isn't just made up nonsense to sound good right? Actually I believe it is..
>"If there's a Father and a Son there should totally be a Mother Well, in the context of humans, since we're the only living creatures with this notion of God, why is it that it takes a male and female to create life, something which is something only God has the power to do.
Which is why I ask, why is the woman not held within the trinity? The female essence is essential to life. Would you agree?
Camden Thomas
>Not sure why you brought her up Because she is the only person in the Bible who could possibly qualify as a divine mother figure. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you might have had a point and weren't just another fedora tipper weighing into theological issues he doesn't understand and making a fool of himself.
>Which is why I ask, why is the woman not held within the trinity? There is no basis for it in the Bible. Pretty simple. The theology of the trinity is firmly rooted in what the Bible says. You're proposing paganism.
Ethan Martin
>Because she is the only person in the Bible who could possibly qualify as a divine mother figure. That's merely because of her "virgin birth".
And to be honest, I don't think you understand the theological issues either pertaining to the trinity either.
>You're proposing paganism. Not quite sure how you came up with that.
I'm merely asking you why the female (mother) essence isn't within the trinity and you can't give me any logical answer.
>There is no basis for it in the Bible Is not a logical answer.
Michael Campbell
Well I would have taken a "I don't know", but you tried to make a fool of me. It's you looking like the fool now.
Cameron Rogers
>What do you all know about John the Baptist.
It's frustrating how few scraps have survived from that time period; I know there's speculation he was once part of (or influenced by) a Jewish ascetic group like the Essenes or Therapeutae, but we have so little to go on beyond that they tended to isolate themselves in small gatherings of others like them and had healing/cleansing rituals that may have involved something like Baptism that it's practically guessing. If there's information more specific you're after, let me know I can see what my memory dredges up.
>Didn't a gnostic sect hail him as the tire messiah?
Messaged my fiance to fill in on this (my area of "expertise" is more the history and development of Christian monastic/ascetic practices) as she started out specializing in Gnosticism.
She said that there was no such thing, "unless whoever told them that was conflating another Christian mythic system with 'Gnosticism," which is quite common due to the Gnosticism as a blanket term for heresy assumption created by Ireneaus and reinscribed by scholars who misunderstood identity formation." Also recommended reading Karen King's "What is Gnosticism" for a work that would answer many questions about them.
There's a modern, tiny religious sect called the Mandaeans that include John the Baptist among their most beloved religious figures and call themselves gnostic, but she said there's very little scholarship on them, what has been written is often contradictory, there are many questions of whether their history actually goes back as far as they say, and given the amount of time that has passed since the first faiths labeled gnosticism it's unlikely that their current beliefs give a good model for what ancient gnostic groups were like.
David Kelly
>What school are you in?
I'd rather not be too specific, but it's either Claremont, Syracuse, or Vanderbilt. Don't know what your areas of interest are, but Islamic faith traditions seem rather underrepresented despite a fair amount of interest in hiring professors in that area at many universities.
>In English they something along the lines of "our name is legion, for we are many." What exactly was that passage in pre-medieval French?
IIRC, the same thing. The message doesn't appear to have changed much, just how people interpreted it. The wiggle room of "Is he talking about the Roman armies, or just a lot of something and it's a coincidence?" is a consequence of "legion" taking on that additional definition of "many" around a millennium later, probably in reference to that very passage.
Matthew Williams
>Is not a logical answer. It is when you're discussing Christian theology. No point discussing the trinity if you won't make the first step of accepting the Bible is truth. It's like arguing about the nuance of the Quran if you don't accept Muhammad was a prophet, pointless.
Ethan Morales
So because your book of "truth" has no answer to the question, you simply outright dismiss the question? That doesn't really help your side of the argument.
Kayden Myers
>So because your book of "truth" has no answer to the question It does have the answer to the question, you dismissed it as not being a logical answer you retard.
Nathaniel Edwards
I asked you why the female essence isn't represented in the trinity, your answer was that there is no basis for it in the bible. So by that logic your bible doesn't have the answer to my question.
Jackson Morgan
>be me, proud roman patrician >Marcus Publius Aurelius, doing trade in judea, spices and what not >fucking shithole, the wether's awfull, no civilization to be seen >all the men fuck sheep, and you can comiserate with them once you see the women >decide to try and see the culture (what little there is) >go to local temple >bit of a rucuss outside >go in >fucking riot in the atrium, some fucking jew pleb is kicking the shit out of the traders and money lenders >this guy is going full ape shit >starts speaking in their language, fucking barbarians >ask my slave what he's saying >something about being the son of god, how they were in his father's house, etc... >sudden realization, this guys just kicked he local comerce out of their business area, and called himself king, in a state vassal to rome... >he'll be dead soon enough, rebel scum
>be 2000 years later >still talking about it
fucking jews can never forget anything, can they?
Juan Watson
Well the Jews likely saw the Romans as the barbarians, considering they brute forced their way into the area. Sure the jews had their own problems, but it didn't help the fact that they suddenly had to deal with a tyrant coming in with his army to try and "sort it out".
Asher James
oops, did I say tyrant coming in with his army? I ment Jesus and his disciples ;-)
