Culturally speaking, was ancient Greece closer to the Near East than Europe?

They were part of the Mediterranean world and were most similar to other Mediterranean societies

It was Europe. A better question would be "is Europe close to the near east culturally speaking, in which the answer would be yes

The Turks living in Turkey are the direct descendants of the native population of Anatolia. Their culture has shifted dramatically, but ethnically they're the same.

Medieval Anatolia had a huge urbanized population. A band of a few thousand conquering Turkic nomads would not be enough to breed out and/or displace that many people. If they had managed such a feat it would have been the most impressive genocide in human history.

I did say Rome

They freaking founded med culture.

*sucks teeth*

Won' box mufugga?

no, that would be the Phoenicians

They had a hand in it, but to say they founded it is going a bit too far. If we're talking about Mediterranean culture circa the Ancient Greeks, then it was a group effort. Phoenicians also had a huge hand in it, along with Egyptians, Minoans, Hittites, etc.

Well they did export greek culture to Italy and even southern france.

Yes, which is why they had a hand in it, but if we're making a classification as broad as "Mediterranean Culture," then the Greeks are not the sole founders and contributors. Especially since the Egyptians and Minoans had existed for 1000+ years before the Mycenaeans. The Greeks themselves also weren't 100% original. They had cultural influence from the various near eastern people who predated them.

Besides some contributions to the alphabet, what contributions to med culture did the Egyptians give?

Minoan and Hittite culture were completely wiped out in the collapse.

being the only major civilization to survive the bronze age collapse Egypt was the university of the world. Take this Greek archaic age statue for example, not that its an obvious attempt to mimic Egyptian sculpture. The Greeks weren't able to make anything like this in the dark age, it was only after they had more contact with the Egyptians that they really took off.

>Mathematics
>Papyrus
>Medicinal techniques
>Several common names
>Musical instruments

A culture being wiped out is not the same as its legacy and influence being wiped out.The Mycenaeans were wiped out in the collapse too, but I don't see anyone making the claim that they had no influence on Greek and therefore the wider Mediterranean culture.

Could they have been the sea people?

True, but I think its worth noting that until the discovery of the palace at Knossos in 1878 the Minoan civilization had been completely forgotten, that has to say something about the importance of its legacy. Even at the time of the Bronze Age collapse their best years were centuries in the past and they had been subjugated by the Mycenaeans.

Though I guess they weren't forgotten to the classic greeks, since you have the story of Theseus and the Minotaur where he goes to Crete to end their practice of demanding human tribute, so there must have been a collective memory of a time in the distant past when the greek mainland was ruled by Crete.

A lot of people could have been the Sea People. Some theorize that even Sardinians, could have been the Sea People. There's also a good chance that it was more than one group of people. As Egypt was declining due to the Collapse, it's possible that a lot of nearby sea fairing people were just taking shots at it, not unlike what the several Germanic groups did to Rome.

>but I think its worth noting that until the discovery of the palace at Knossos in 1878 the Minoan civilization had been completely forgotten, that has to say something about the importance of its legacy
The Epic of Gilgamesh had also been very much forgotten until recent history. That doesn't mean that it's influence is still not very clear to see in the centuries of epic poetry that succeeded it. Cultural influence can exist without us being aware of it. Influence doesn't just start to exist once we find out about it.
>Even at the time of the Bronze Age collapse their best years were centuries in the past and they had been subjugated by the Mycenaeans
Who assimilated parts of their culture into their own, thus enforcing the point that their culture did not die with their civilization and was still significant well after their demise.

Wait, are the Minoans not greek?

Eh, that's kind of asking whether or not the Picts are Scottish. One culture is partly the result of the other, but that doesn't make them the same. It's the like the relationship between the square and rectangle. Though the Minoans are far from the biggest contributors to Greek culture.

Normally, we would want to keep the issues of language and culture completely separate. But with Crete in this period, we are still struggling to find the linguistic and cultural connections of Crete to the rest of the Mediterranean.

One thing I would say is that we cannot speak of the identities present in Crete in this period, so we can't honestly say that 'Minoan' refers to a single identity, culture, or even language. So I will be a little guarded with using the term 'Minoan'.

Many different theories have been proposed about the cultural and linguistic heritage of Crete in the Minoan periods.

An older theory that I still occasionally see trotted out is that the Cretans of this period were a precursor to later Ancient Greek, both culturally and linguistically. This theory has no direct evidence, and in addition reflects a tendency to present direct precursors to ancient Greek culture being present in locations that would later be considered culturally Greek. If this theory was to be proven correct, somehow, it would definitely place the Minoans as Indo-European speakers.

A theory that I've heard more than a few times now is that Crete's culture in the Minoan periods was an offshoot of the Luwian cultures/languages. This was a branch of the Anatolian languages, themselves a branch of Indo-European. Indeed, this is connected to general theories of an Anatolian-Minoan connection. Part of the reason this theory gained traction was because certain archaeologists felt that there was a distinct resemblance in Minoan and Anatolian material culture.

the minoan civilization was long gone before greece even existed, but they were definitely a greek forerunner

However, another major theory regarding Minoan culture and language is that they were what the Ancient Greeks called 'Pelasgians'. This Greek term referred to pre-Greek peoples who lived in what became Greek inhabited areas. There are big issues with regards to reconstructing pre-Indo-European cultures and language groups in the Aegean, so a lot of the specifics of this theory are up in the air. The common element of all of this branch of theories is the idea that the Cretans in this period were speaking a pre-Indo-European language and that their culture predates the expansion of Indo-Europeans from whichever reconstructed homeland you personally ascribe to.

There are almost certainly other theories, but these are the ones that either are or were popular and had academic support. There's almost certainly a lot of fringe theories on the subject, Minoan Crete is practically your standard canvas for crackpot ancient historical theories because so little is known about it.

As for my opinion on the subject, much rides on deciphering Linear A, the script associated with Minoan Crete. But it's a chicken and egg scenario; we can't read the script because we aren't sure what language is being represented, and we can't be sure what language is being represented because we can't read the script. I have seen a few attempts at deciphering Linear A, none of them have convinced me so far. It's only once we're able to read it that I think your question will be answered. I am a little hopeful given the number of scripts that have been deciphered across the 20th century.

>Minoan Crete is practically your standard canvas for crackpot ancient historical theories because so little is known about it
This so much. About ten years ago I happened upon a thread where a guy claimed that in 1930s an estonian >scholar managed to decipher LinearA as an estonian rhyming-verse technique (protoregivärss). The guy was adamant that this hinted at the untold glory of ancient estonians.

Back then I laughed and mocked, but now having learned of the Hyperwar, I am rendered silent as I ponder and dream of a greater past.

Turkish archeologists found a large harbor in south east turkey so maybe thats were the sea peoples came from.

Greece had similarities, but it was separate. Also, there was no "Europe" at the time. Greek culture became European culture.

Linear A will probably never be deciphered. There simply isn't a large enough corpus to work from. I'm not aware of any script that's ever been deciphered from such scant data.

I know, I'm not happy about it either.

Alphabet was first developed by the Egyptians, Phoenicians just modified it and spread it.

It is not "theorized" that it was more than one group.

It WAS more thanone group, the ones we are certain of are Lycians and Cilicians, but probably Greeks were there too and it's not unlikely Shekelesh and Sherden were Sicilians and Sardinians.

Also they were joined by Lybians and maybe tribes from as far west as Tunisia.

It was always western

The Greeks intentionally separated themselves from both European and Middle Eastern (or just Asian) peoples. Often, they would look at virtues, ideals and traditions the two as polar opposite to each other, seeing themselves as a sort of middle way that was balanced out, and therefor also the "best".

Things like writing and science are more characteristic to the middle east, but take those things away and they look more like the Celts (rival city states/tribes, more "heroic" style warfare language group).

Naw, it was invented by Semitic nomads in Egypt. Then it spread to the Phoenicians.

>greeks are just like those steppeniggers from central asia

It was Devoloped in the Sinai
The Sinai has always been semetic and closer to Near Easterners than Egypt culturally although dominated by Egypt Politically
Even today most People in the Sinai don't see themselfs as Egyptians which is causing a lot of problems