The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation...

>mfw I see Hegelians to this day

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The original /r9k/er

Indeed

This is bullshit though because most people are and always will be thoroughly average and forgettable. Most people are flat out incapable of standing out from the greater mass of humanity no matter how hard they try, and in such a situation identifying with and taking pride in the achievements of your own racial/ethnic group is absolutely inevitable.

>If i have a positive trait i see no reason not to be proud of it.

The point is your nationality is not a positive trait.

>and in such a situation identifying with and taking pride in the achievements of your own racial/ethnic group is absolutely inevitable.

Yeah, because an individual relinquishing his own individuality for the sake of an abstract ideal of nationality and herd consciousness isn't a willing action on individual's part.

If you are truly independent, self-contented and intellectual, you will not have an inherent need to gravitate towards the herd.

>projecting this hard

وَأَوْحَىٰ رَبُّكَ إِلَى النَّحْلِ أَنِ اتَّخِذِي مِنَ الْجِبَالِ بُيُوتًا وَمِنَ الشَّجَرِ وَمِمَّا يَعْرِشُونَ

And your Lord inspired to the bee, "Take for yourself among the mountains, houses, and among the trees and [in] that which they construct.

ثُمَّ كُلِي مِن كُلِّ الثَّمَرَاتِ فَاسْلُكِي سُبُلَ رَبِّكِ ذُلُلًا ۚ يَخْرُجُ مِن بُطُونِهَا شَرَابٌ مُّخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهُ فِيهِ شِفَاءٌ لِّلنَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

Then eat from all the fruits and follow the ways of your Lord laid down [for you]." There emerges from their bellies a drink, varying in colors, in which there is healing for people. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who give thought.

That doesn't make it "bullshut;" that's what he's saying, that nationalism/racism/whatever is for retard normies.

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Καὶ περὶ ἐνδύματος τί μεριμνᾶτε; Καταμάθετε τὰ kρίνα τοῦ ἀγροῦ, πῶς αὐξάνει· οὐ kοπιᾷ, οὐδὲ νήθει·

And why take ye thought for raiment?
Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow;
they toil not, neither do they spin:

Since when does taking pride in and identifying with your own ethnic group mean you also can't have individual thoughts and desires?

>independent,
See above
>self-contented and intellectual
Nobody on this fucking website is the first and frankly the latter thing isn't nearly what it's cracked up to be.

Simple statements of fact are not projection.

No. It would be Plato for the West. If you include Eastern philosophy you can go back even further.

"For the case of my dead let it be known that I despise the german nation for its overbearing stupidity and are ashamed to be a part of it"

Except that's wrong too because plenty of smart sophisticated people have also chosen nationalism over egalitarianism, marxism, globalism, or whatever fucking other ism you care to to name.

יְקָ֣רָה הִ֭יא [מִפְּנִיִּים כ] (מִפְּנִינִ֑ים ק) וְכָל־חֲ֝פָצֶ֗יךָ לֹ֣א יִֽשְׁווּ־בָֽהּ׃

She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.

>Since when does taking pride in and identifying with your own ethnic group mean you also can't have individual thoughts and desires?

Taking pride into accomplishments of an entity that is not yourself is in stark contrast with any form of individuality and is absurd as it gets.

It isn't about having individual thoughts and desires, but rather, identifying whether the pressure of their origin arises from within you, or the exterior idea, or an ideology of nationalism in this specific case.

But they can afford it because at least they are smart. They are smart DESPITE being nationalists.

>Argumentum ad populum

Yeah, showing right now how smart and sophisticated you are, fampalan.

>Schopenhauer attributed civilizational primacy to the northern "white races" due to their sensitivity and creativity (except for the ancient Egyptians and Hindus whom he saw as equal):

>The highest civilization and culture, apart from the ancient Hindus and Egyptians, are found exclusively among the white races; and even with many dark peoples, the ruling caste or race is fairer in colour than the rest and has, therefore, evidently immigrated, for example, the Brahmans, the Incas, and the rulers of the South Sea Islands. All this is due to the fact that necessity is the mother of invention because those tribes that emigrated early to the north, and there gradually became white, had to develop all their intellectual powers and invent and perfect all the arts in their struggle with need, want and misery, which in their many forms were brought about by the climate. This they had to do in order to make up for the parsimony of nature and out of it all came their high civilization.[64]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Schopenhauer

Well, Schopenhauer dismantled a lotnof stuff as foolish or based on self piety and evaluation but he also once said that in practical life, a great philosophical intellect is as useful as a star-telescope in the opera.
We may know its bullshit but nationalism is useful bullshit so ridiculing it is bad.

It all boils down to the some form of utility for the masses. His essay on religion presents this form of argument and thought in a quite accurate light.

>>Taking pride into accomplishments of an entity that is not yourself is in stark contrast with any form of individuality
Maybe so, but that doesn't mean you also can't take pride in your own individual achievements whatever those may be.

>>and is absurd as it gets
This is blatantly hyperbolic.

>>It isn't about having individual thoughts and desires, but rather, identifying whether the pressure of their origin arises from within you, or the exterior idea, or an ideology of nationalism in this specific case.
It's probably a mix of the three in my opinion, but I would also state that disdain for the unfamiliar and alien goes all the way back to the cro-magnon era and nationalism is just the latest variant of tribalism to exist currently.

Neither nationalism nor any ideology that opposes nationalism makes you smart or dumb in and of themselves.

yeah, you can be smart as an individual but less so as a hive of individuals which need to coordinate themselves.

Thank you.

Nowhere in that quote it says that you should be proud of yourself for making part of the white people. Prove me wrong.

你 必 汗 流 滿 面 才 得 糊 口 , 直 到 你 歸 了 土 , 因 為 你 是 從 土 而 出 的 。 你 本 是 塵 土 , 仍 要 歸 於 塵 土 。

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

It's more of a North vs South thing.

>Maybe so, but that doesn't mean you also can't take pride in your own individual achievements whatever those may be.

That is the entire point to be made here, the only form of pride which you can rationally harbor is that of an object which is a direct product of your effort or an achieved ambition. Your birth into a certain ethnic group by a roll of cosmic dice is NOT a part of your individual ambition and therefore achievement, thus it is irrational to place any value in the act in form of a pride.

You're right. In fact, I would argue, for schoppie you shouldn't even so much as be proud of being a member of the human species! Just showing that his views are more nuanced and not compatible with egalitarian and liberal world views.

6 Ðừng cho chó những đồ thánh, và đừng quăng hột trai mình trước mặt heo, kẻo nó đạp dưới chơn, và quay lại cắn xé các ngươi.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Even if the deny it. People know deep inside this thread is the pure truth. I'm 100% certain.

>>irrational
So what? National pride is irrational and? People aren't robots and we are not all that rational on the whole. Furthermore, irrational is not something that is necessarily synonymous with bad.

I'm 100% certain that I'm your father. Prove me wrong.

National pride is not necessary for nationalism.

An emotional connection to the political entity itself is enough.

The same goes for ethnicity.

A parent loves his child more than other children and wants it to succeed over the other children, that does not mean he hates the other children, merely that he loves his child more.

Replace parent with citizen and child with country and there you go.

Dude, how can you philosophically justify being proud of another's man accomplishments. Imagine if 100% of earth were white. You're literally saying that you're proud that you exist.
>I have accomplished nothing in my life but at least I exist

>National pride is irrational and?

And it's primarily a trait of losers.

No, it's primarily a trait of average people who don't stand out one way or the other.

Also, insults and arguments are two different things.

>opinion, appeal to emotion
Wow, that's not very rational. Should I take that you're a loser? But we all know that already don't we?

If my nation spawned loads of geniuses that advanced mankind through history there's obviously something either in how the society specific of that nation that works or the genes of those people that are superior to other nations that didn't do jack shit.

In either way it means that nation did and keeps doing something better than others.

Philosophical justification means jack and shit in comparison to wanting to live in a country where most of the people look like you, speak the same language as you and mostly share the same values as you.

That is another point to be made here. The world and its society are fixated into a firm dual hierarchy consisting of leaders and followers.

There is not a greater suicide for the mind of a leader than to conform to the mindset of a follower out of a delusion and ignorance.

Exactly.
Which is why i hate /int/ bait threads the most.

Nationalism is the mindset of a follower now? I don't think so. I think it is more then possible to take pride in the nation in which you live and also be capable of a leadership role of some sort within that nation.

>No, it's primarily a trait of average people who don't stand out one way or the other.

Yeah, and Schopy considers the average person a loser.

>hurr durr, no u!!!!

Ouch, user. Ouch.

>Irrational arguments are only bad when other people make them!
I win xd

Nationalism is a tool towards achieving an ambition in the hands and mind of a leader.

For a follower, it is a convenient delusion, a castle in the sky to take pride and solace within.

>Nationalism is the mindset of a follower now?

Absolutely, yes.

So then should I have no pride for my family? Seeing billions of people become parents, so mine are inherently worthless?

Also, every nation is going to be filled with people who have little to no pride, so why not give them pride in their nation. If it gives them something, even a little bit, then it will help them become more proactive citizens.

What's irrational about it? The quote in the OP makes sense to me. Are you just saying it offends you?

>>Yeah, and Schopy considers the average person a loser.
And why should I give a fuck about his opinion of the average person? He died alone and likely unhappy and aside from what were a few fuckbuddies he never seemed to have fallen in love, married and had children. He seems like he was a sad, miserable, and rather solitary man.

The average person during the time Schopenhauer was alive was probably less miserable then he was.

Schopenhauer was to smart to be happy.

>>Nationalism is a tool towards achieving an ambition in the hands and mind of a leader.
This is part of what nationalism is, it is not all that it is however and this is yet another area where I simply disagree with you and Schopenhauer.

>So then should I have no pride for my family?

Pride in your children is a little different because you raised them. But mostly, yeah, what your grandpa did is nothing to be proud of (or ashamed of).

>And why should I give a fuck about his opinion of the average person?

I guess because you're interested in philosophy? Seems like maybe it's not for you.

Happiness is definitely not a measure of a clear perspective of the reality of our existence and being.

If anything, a mind gravitating towards the highest attainable form of objectivity in perceiving reality, is a mind doomed to unhappiness and scorn, because reality itself is composed of cruel and dark shades of gray.

>>Happiness is definitely not a measure of a clear perspective of the reality of our existence and being.

>>If anything, a mind gravitating towards the highest attainable form of objectivity in perceiving reality, is a mind doomed to unhappiness and scorn, because reality itself is composed of cruel and dark shades of gray.
All this tells me is that absolute rationality and objectivity are undesirable. Which is just fine for me, because I am not completely or even mostly rational and objective and I am okay with that.

>one man's opinion stands for philosophy in general
Sure thing kiddo.

youtu.be/_J09aeeBVtk

Who are you quoting?

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So should we not have holidays for key figures, like MLK Jr? Seeing many people fight for equality through out history, and many had a tougher fight then he did.

It depends upon the nature of your being which very much ties onto the aforementioned duality.

If your mind is not an inquisitive one in the pursuit of understanding, that is simply how the things are, perhaps for the best on your individual basis.

But it is an important realization to be drawn, that these very minds, ones in pursuit of some manner of understanding and coherence, always were and are fundamental aspects of intellectual giants who have led and influenced the world and human sociey towards both prosperity and doom, more-so the former than the latter, judging by the fact of our current state of affairs and the fact thay we still prevail as the species.

Just curious: Do philosophers that argue for nationalism say that people should unite for a common cause because that is in their best interest or that people should be proud automatically because they were born in a certain geographical area?

Nice try, I didn't write off rationality and the pursuit of knowledge as a whole, and I find it very hard to believe that Schopenhauer or those who sympathized with him had much to do with our present prosperity and lack of widespread death and destruction.

MLK is different because he fought for things similar to the things I believe in.

Maybe you should ask them.

And if I was to say my nation fought for and created things that I believe in?

Like the US Constitution for example.

If the sum of your arguments can be reduced down to "I don't believe in X because I simply don't", there truly isn't much point in having any further discussion with you.

So far, you have failed to support a single assertion and belief on your side via rationality you supposedly adhere to.

You haven't supported shit either pal, you especially haven't supported the idea that our present prosperity depends on people like Schopenhauer.

History is a testament to my claim. If you bothered to follow the chain of thought and the amount of influence which Schopenhauer's work exerted upon his intellectual successors, perhaps you'd possess some insight into that what I am talking about.

>>History is a testament to my claim.
No it isn't. Our modern prosperity has more to do with advancing technology, economic growth and nuclear deterrence then it does any amount of words from Schopenhauer.

On the topic of nationality, If you're American you went to the moon because of a German man. Einstein was also German.

Von Neumann was Hungarian

Yes and? Nationalism doesn't necessarily mean you can't recognize the contributions of people born in foreign lands to your own country. Furthermore, we would absolutely have gotten to the moon without Von Braun, we had a rocket program before he came over here and the Manhattan Project was the work of numerous scientists, Einstein was only one of them.

It is precisely so, because the modern scientific method based upon empiricism largely has its basis in continental philosophy, which was spearheaded by Schopenhauer and primarily - his successors.

Your inability to comprehend and grasp the greater picture only serves to show your intellectual laziness, unwillingness or an unfortunate mixture of both, to follow through the chain of progress.

> we had a rocket program before he came over here

A rocket program that was utter shit and had a record of a few miles of altitude while the V-2 were passing the Kármán line in 1944.

Do not kid yourself, without ze Germans, the USA would be a decade or two behind.

Of importance too is that the America nation created a society where such people as Von Braun and Einstein could be employed, and this was only possible due to years of scientific and wealth accumulation, itself made possible by commen values and goals shared by the people over a very long period of time. If Von Braun and Einstein somehow landed on Liberia, it obviously wouldn't be the same story. In short, nation, ethnicity, shared values matter a lot.

I'm not even American btw.

>>It is precisely so
Actually, it isn't as empirical thought cannot be traced to schopenhauer exclusively or even mostly, hell depending on how you define empiricism can be traced back to the renaissance or possibly earlier if you believe the people who claim that christian philosophers in the middle ages got people interested in something besides just listening to Aristotle.

>>Your inability to comprehend and grasp the greater picture
Alright that fucking does it. I comprehend the globalist position just fine fucknut, I also comprehend that said position is fundamentally opposed to my own interests and the interests of my countrymen. Globalist, anti-nationalist shitbags would happily see every nation on earth flooded with third world idiots who would in turn drag down every formerly advanced and prosperous nation until the entire fucking planet is one big global brazil.

Fuck that shit and fuck you too you goddamn piece of human garbage.

No shit the germans had a head start, but at the same time a decade behind just means you get to the moon 10 years later, and if Von Braun and his associates had died that doesn't mean our own scientists were somehow incapable of replicating their achievements.

Not that guy but I don't want to see your nation flooded I just want you to recognize that the greatness of your country was built by other great mean that are not you. Only after you have accomplished something you can claim greatness.

Taking pride in your nation or ethnic groups achievements doesn't necessarily mean that you think that you yourself are great though. It just means you recognize where you came from and want the place you came from to be preserved as much as possible.

Furthermore, and I know I'm repeating myself here, but most people will never be great or be remembered beyond their own immediate family and friends and with the gradual death of sincere religious belief, nationalism gives people meaning and purpose.

It isn't about pinpointing the origins of scientific method and empiricism, but realizing that the entire chain of progress is built upon the inherent human desire towards understanding and knowing.

One may be valid in dismissing a good portion of Schopenhauer's work, but if you were to bother exploring it in depth, you could easily discover fundamental truths pertaining to the human nature, most of which have found irrefutable basis in the modern science, specifically the field of psychology.

Dismissing Schopenhauer's influence within all this amounts to intellectual suicide which you express right at this very moment, easily recognizable and manifested via your expressed anger and disdain.

>Have you noticed some people from some fucked up slavic countries who think they're shit simply because they're white? It's embarrassing.
Why do you single out slavs? This is the case in every white country.

>nationalism gives people meaning and purpose.

Exactly. A place of solace and conformity supplanting ambition which is the tree of prosperity and achievement.

Nationalism is a toxic mentallity, an evil friend to an average man.

Depends how you play it.
Nationalism after you achieved wealth may lead to stagnant wewuzzing. Nationalism in times of danger may help a group to channel its ambitions into force as seen in the european spring of nations which violently made republicanism possible, fueled by nationalist zeal.

It still comes as a sacrifice on behalf of an individual. At the end of the day, nationalism is a self-serving ideology, sucking the life out of an independant individual who has no need for it whatsoever.