Chinese History

For Confucianism, remember that he very much emphasized that superiors should treat their inferiors well or else expect opposition. This extends to the political realm. If the ruler is improper and incompetent/malicious enough, his subjects have the right to rebel (especially according to Mencius). Also, his idea of junzi applying to all capable (in contrast to the dominance of hereditary nobility of his time) helped establish the idea of meritocracy in China.

But yeah, the idea of rewards and punishments for the commoners is probably influence from Legalism.

It's not long at all. Like 29 pages.

Here, have a pdf.

with.org/tao_te_ching_en.pdf

Bored and unemployed chinese here
Ask me anything or if you have anything that needs translated

So guys what do you recommend as a good ancient chinese history book? The book I've been reading super glosses over early China in favor for 18th - 21st century China. I originally wanted to learn Chinese history to prepare myself for the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Would like a good history textbook on things that cover the Qin, Han, Yellow Turban Revolution, Three Kingdoms and all the people involved in the period.

>Unemployed Chinese
Why are you unfilial?

The Dao De Jing in the Guodian Chu Slips is said to be less explicitly anti-Confucian than later versions of the text.

Living in NZ atm
Went back to China for 5 months
Can't find a job now I'm back
(seriously though finding a job is easy af in China, I just walked in an office one day to ask the boss and they gave me a one-month job)

>Confucianism
You forgot the most important thing: EDUCATION. You can TEACH people to be good.

>Most Confucian principles are only applied to the higher class / the nobles. The common people are not guided by the same moral system, but rather by a system of rewards and punishments.
I'm going to disagree here because, while the classism definitely is there (that you should do what is appropriate to your social status), the aristocratic ideal is that you lead by example, and thus inspire the commoners to be good people as well. And the greater the power, the greater the responsibility, and higher the standards of moral virtue.

>A ruler's conduct is important and if the ruler is bad, people won't follow them.
The state needs to be managed by the best, not just in terms of ability, but of virtue. Virtuous, selfless rulers produce virtuous, selfless citizens.

>I know one of the major tenets of daoism is wu wei "action by inaction" but I'm having trouble understanding what that actually entails.
It's going with the flow, instead of against it. Wake up at dawn, go to sleep at sundown. Stop rebelling against forces outside your control and live a spontaneous, happy life, content of what you have. Instead of trying to overanalyze, struggle and plan for everything, learn to sit back, wait a bit for the right moment.

From a political standpoint, it's basically the ruler commanding just by being there, he doesn't have to do anything because the ministers, who take care of everything, are like a physical manifestation of his will and power, one gesture from the ruler, they already know what they've been entrusted with.

In a martial arts move you can see people stopping fights simply by being there, or a careful choice of words.

It's a similar realpolitik, pragmatic approach to statecraft. But Legalism is obessed with making everybody equal before the law, you commit a crime, you get punished. A Machiavellian ruler would allow some exceptions to that.

Usually, when a Westerner asks a Chinese what he thinks of Daoism, the reply involves the Chinese's distaste for superstitions and rituals of the Daoist religion. That's because the Westerner typically thinks of the Daodejing and Zhuangzi while Daoism is in fact a very long and complex religion.

So what do the Chinese think of their philosophical classics, the Lunyu, Daodejing, Mengzi, Zhuangzi? Are they read in school?

How important are the Confucian and Daoist classics in the average Chinese's education? And what about the Buddhist scriptures?

How often does a Chinese meet a Buddhist monk or Daoist priest? Is it just for the funerals?

Ching chong chang

Whats the best translation of Three Kingdoms? Is it the Moss Roberts version?

To answer your questions:
>Usually, when a Westerner asks a Chinese what he thinks of Daoism, the reply involves the Chinese's distaste for superstitions and rituals of the Daoist religion. That's because the Westerner typically thinks of the Daodejing and Zhuangzi while Daoism is in fact a very long and complex religion.

Taoist superstitions are still practiced on a regular basis, whether as a serious religion, hipster-cults, scams or medical placebo.

>So what do the Chinese think of their philosophical classics, the Lunyu, Daodejing, Mengzi, Zhuangzi? Are they read in school?

The classics are taken much less seriously in the modern era. They are more thought as cultural relics. Selective phrases are still taught since the start of primary school.

>How important are the Confucian and Daoist classics in the average Chinese's education? And what about the Buddhist scriptures?

Confucianism is still taught as pillar of society, daoism sparsely mentioned and buddhism nonexistent.

>How often does a Chinese meet a Buddhist monk or Daoist priest? Is it just for the funerals?

They usually have temples in mountain areas so if you live near a mountain you see them often. But if you live in urban areas nope. Funerals depends on local and family beliefs entirely, sometimes you get a mix of daoism and buddhism.

Would you get arrested for bringing up tiananmen square?

Depends on who you are and how you do it
Say if you are one of those broke students with no friends influenced by american ideals
You can shout all day long and nobody cares
But if you are a movie star, boss of some medium sized company or someone with a lot of followers on internet
If you even remotely hint of that kind of stuff police will invite you for tea

I fucking ADORE Han Feizi and Lord Shang. I have also always loved machiavelli. The sheer sophiostication of Shang is unmatched until Hugo Grotius at least in the west.

What is the historical education like in China, for both domestic and foreign history? How well informed is the average citizen about history, compared to the West? Better or worse?

For domestic history people were told of how great our race were and our achievements over and over. Basically it's like you win an award and you brag about that for the rest of your life. The common educated city dwellers are very educated about history since it's an integral part of the Chinese language study, which is part of big exams for university entrance.

Foreign history except greek philosophy/legends is rarely taught. Before I got out of China I didn't even know the geography of europe and americas. And due to party policy all history involving the abrahamic religions are not taught at all.

Daoism is a meme. Confucianism is ok

[Citation needed]

I clearly was taught about Islam/Judaism. Are you 30+?

So why did you leave China? And when? Would you ever go back?

Maybe because I left the country before finishing high school. Or perhaps different systems in different provinces.

Allergic/Vasomotor rhinitis. Can't handle the smog at all when it comes. Yes I definitely would go back if the job competition isn't as tough in the future, mainly because I had enough of bland british food

>mainly because I had enough of bland british food
Come to america

> mainly because I had enough of bland british food
Come to Singapore or Malaysia. Lots of Chinese here who haven't lost their culture unlike Western diasporas, and real Chinese food not the fake sweet shit they serve in England.

>Chinese History thread
>it doesn't turn into a Romance of the Three Kingdoms powerlevel wank in the first 10 posts

I'm legitimately impressed.

>entire imperial family gets kidnapped and raped by steppe niggers

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingkang_incident

How about this?
ctext.org/hai-dao-suan-jing

Here's a pretty good video on Confucianism vs Daoism. Though some parts are buggy.

Oops
youtube.com/watch?v=HpPNA6Grutc

just read that whole thing, the Song deserved it all

is the warring states period something I should read about? Is it interesting or important? My history textbook does not talk about it at all outside of like a reference in a paragraph when talking about the Qin and Han.

also what chinese food should i get tonight to continue my studies of chinese history

Legalism is the most idiotic, cynical, outright evil philosophy imo

>_The Book of Lord Shang_ was very hard for me to read: there is something sublime about it, in the old sense of "terrifying" - the policies and reasoning laid out are a systematic crushing of anything that might oppose the State and its goals. It feels inhuman, mechanical, and all the more so when you know that these sort of policies *were* how the Qin crushed all their opposition - including those states espousing the other Hundred Schools of Thought like Mohism & Confucianism - and that the 20th century affords further examples of how these policies proved themselves in practice (unlike the former Schools).

>It's no wonder that there are so many negative reviews on the other copies here at Goodreads: you might as well ask your normal liberal Western to drink rat poison as read _The Book of Lord Shang_ & try to fairly evaluate it. Even if they've read their share of Chinese classics & philosophy, they wouldn't *want* to understand it, just like modern readers don't *want* to understand the Unabomber's philosophy.

Three Kingdoms is fiction, not history. Don't bother.

Read the relevant chapters of the Zizhi Tongjian instead. The ones pertaining to the time period were translated into English by Rafe de Crespigny and Achilles Fang. Both can be found online relatively easily.

>Achilles Fang
what a badass name

>just found out Mulan wasn't a real person

I distinctively remember one of my history teachers telling me the opposite.

...

Was the Tang dynasty or the Song dynasty the golden age of China, Veeky Forums?

If I had to choose, the Tang. China was like the America of Eastern Asia at that time. Song dynasty was great, but it went too berserk with weakening their military.

I think Daoism is remarkable in how modern its philosophical underpinnings are from a western perspective, particularly the work of Zhuangzi. You see sentiments in it echoing the later works of the existentialists and post-structuralists before Jesus was born.

first one to talk gets to stay in my dynasty!

T;ang was strong all around - it even survived a rebellion that would wreck most dynasties.

Song was stronk in innovation and economics but meh in administration, and was retards with their military.

Confucius gave the best pragmatic reason to be good.

Obey your father so he is good to you.
Educate your citizens just as urgently as you would defend your nation so they become moral and productive.
etc.

Not too big of a fan. Grew up in a Confucian culture and they have the right intentions but some of the customs and practices become too restrictive and you really see how much its dedicated to stability at the expense of the individual and dynamism. Westerners really have no idea what true conservativism is until they lived in the East. The one cool thing I suppose I got out of this was that I can trace my lineage to the late 1200s because of muh filial piety.

>Philosophical Daoism
>Based around the concept of unity of opposites

Has anyone noticed how this dialectic structure pops up in all cultures? The aztecs had a very similar concept about teotl, and reality as a mask that both conceals and reveals its true nature through duality.

Perhaps, but I'm glad it existed, and I can see why it did.

>literally melted my brain.
>melted brain
>literally

Come on now.

dayum based post

Tang for sure. Song was good in some ways---namely arts and technological innovation---but they screwed themselves on the military side. Tang was generally well rounded despite some hiccups here and there. As the other user said, they even survived the An Lushan Rebellion. It's also probably the most fascinating period of Chinese history in how it was so open to foreign influence. To be sure, everyone was still bowing to the emperor, but there were huge foreign communities residing in China, foreign religions being espoused, and foreign influence at the imperial court. An Lushan himself was Sogdian, and was the darling of the court for a while. Even one of the leading generals who put the rebellion down (forgot his name) was a Central Asian Muslim. It's interesting to see how open it was compared to later dynasties and even now.

redpill me on empress wu

>unemployed chinese here

u hav dishonor ur famiri

*commits 自尽*

Her ideas are quite similar with a modern 'feminist'

>ctext.org/hai-dao-suan-jing
Pick some verses you want translated. I don't want to translate the entire thing

Thanks senpai

Insane crazy bitch
That's all you need to know

Just translate number 1 then.

How do you think modern communist/state capitalist China is holding up? Could it someday compare to the Tang dynasty?

It's doing okay. If it continues to be stable, it should probably well exceed the Tang due to modern technology and power projection.

humans love recognizable patterns

ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&id=45175

今有望海島,立兩表,齊高三丈,前後相去千步,令後表與前表參相直。從前表卻行一百二十三步,人目著地取望島峯,與表末參合。從後表卻行一百二十七步,人目著地取望島峯,亦與表末參合。問島高及去表各幾何?

Lets consider looking at an island. Two rulers of 3 zhang height are erected. Let the two rulers be on the same line with island. 123 steps away from the nearer ruler , when you look from ground, the tip of ruler and summit of the island overlapped. 127 steps away from the further ruler , when you look from ground, the tip of ruler and summit of the island overlapped.
What is the height of island and how far away is the island from the ruler

Translation seems good, thanks.

Did Xia dynasty exist?

song was the cuck to nomard barbarians as Westerner nowadays to muslim
such is the fate of any high tier civilization

it's important, it's the set piece for the real china history you know, since it's the first time they united as an established land and a centralized government, instead of a feudal system like Europe

Tang is also the period when the Silk road was the most prosper trade route, on land of course
so it's understandable they got so many foreign influence
also a I'm not very sure about the merchant social status in Tang time, they often looked down by the whole upper class and scholars in other dynasty due to the whole "money is dirty, merchants are scammers" meme

this, confucian is basically hell for individualism fag

I'm suprised that the Warring States period doesn't get as much attention as the Three Memedoms in popular culture. There's a whole ton of historical material from that time l.

My book says that Song-era Confucian aristocrats classified the military even lower than merchants on the social hierarchy. Is this true? Why?

does fit the narrative of how Song was militarily weak

rumor to be very beautiful (well she was the emperor's mistress of course) that's like a phoenix in mortal form. But her supposed painting is butt ugly though lel
decent rulers through some economy and developing policies, very fucking brutal to anyone who dared to raise voice against her. (understandable since nobody want an empress in chink land) She even put up an organization made up of crazy fans just to route out and torture these people to dead or banish them
again, rumor to have a very free and open sex life in her palace, so literally owning fucktoys
Well and she also suppressed the Li clan (the de factor dynasty) so much they barely have any descendant left
So the bitch is crazy, but also smart, until her last moment she knew not all the things she did was very bright and all, she then left the tomb? with no words so the people, us, could judge her freely as we want.

>She even put up an organization made up of crazy fans just to route out and torture these people to dead or banish them

Ancient red guards?

it's all thanks to the Romance of three kingdoms novel dude, it got insanely popular even back then in Ming dynasty and became a core culture aspect
the warring states has nothing with the influence like that, I could only recall famous piece like the assassination of the Tan emperor

not sure if military fag are actually lower than merchants
but I do know some reason
1, the 1st emperor of Song dynasty was a high ranking general himself, and that he got the gov in a quick coup due to owning a big portion of the army
so he establish an iron law for his courts and his descendants, lower the status and influence of the military faction in the progress to ensure that no general like him will show up one day and overthrown his dynasty
that is the main reason
2. So with no /k/fag policy, all the emperor and their subordinates became Veeky Forumsfag instead, even when you want to be came an official in the army you gotta be an Veeky Forumsfag first. This led to an golden are for culture and economy prosperity of course, and the Veeky Forumsfag made it damn sure that /k/fag never get any decent political power
You know, imagine it's like Sweden, the whole country is ruled by liberal Idea They even believed that you should not fight back the barbarian, but show them the superior Confucian power of "education" and "culture" so eventually they will pacify themselves and adapt
All of that well, turned them into cucks, the "real men" are cast away and as the obvious outcome you know it.

Pretty good analogy of Song China and Modern Sweden.

There's a long running Japanese manga about it

Did the origins of the Jin Dynasty relate to the Song Dynasty's weak military and acceptance of cultural influence?

there were many forms of "red guards" through out china history mate,
her was extreme but not very effective, after her death the members got their ass in numerous revenge plot by their previous victims
the most famous "Red guard" types/secret polices I say are the
1.Jinyiwei - or the Mauve guard/The Mauve cloth Gaurd (pretty similar to red guard lel)
establish by Hongwu the first Ming emperor to became "the eyes and the ears of emperor", with member carefully selected from the royal guards. Well at first their job is to sniff around and discover any corrupted officials and any suspicious persons that were planing a rebel.
Tbh mr Hongwu was a very skeptical man, so he never trust any subordinates to report back with honesty in their mind. With this kind of mentality he gave the Jinyiwei, his supposed most trusted independent organization an insane power. They could pretty much arrest and put any individuals, even of the royal family member on trial as they see fit, and executed or purged them out of existence as quick as possible. They had their own court, their own army and law enforcers outside of the normal government system. They also hold no qualm to report to any higher official or departments except for the Emperor himself.

2. Of course the Jinyiwei turned into a monster, every members of the court had nightmare of Jinyiwei storming into their house one day, arresting them and their family while confiscating all their assets. They would soon be executed (Jinyiwei doesn't let go of their prey) and their wives and daughter sold to the brothel house for profit (as written in the law)
But what happened when Jinyiwei themselves were the corruption and deceiving the emperor. Well as a fact this 100% occurred as the nature of this organization, so latter emperor establish another secret service, called the Eastern Depot. So normal man have desire for power and wealth, how about we let the Eunuchs do the job. Since they have no dicks so no children, and are property of the emperor, surely they will obey right?
They perform similar function, along with monitoring the Jinyiwei to see if they performing well or not. After that the Eastern depot soon became a second nightmare and another unstoppable force.
Kek so latter emperor deal with this by... establishing another secret service, brilliant, to look after the first two organization. They were the Western depot, also made up of eunuchs (You can't never have enough secret services, there was a time when they had the forth one, but it was a short period)
In the end of all these chaos and fuckery mess, the Ming dynasty pretty much gave political power to the dickless servants, which is very taboo in Chink land. These men were not very mentally stable, still had a "hard" for wealth and they can adopted children for their faction, so corruption and political tumor were out the chart.
This certainly became a disaster latter and one of many reasons why Han lost the land to another nomard tribe the Manchu.

holy fuck I've been reading about Song for the last few days and jesus christ, these guys have to be like the biggest cucks in history ever

first of all, the Jin was a small tribe, literally backward savages (dont even have their own writing) oppressed by Liao dynasty, a more civilized momard north of China.
All changed when their version of Genghis Khan showed up, mr Aguda the chieftain. He himself was a brilliant strategic and a ruler at heart with max point in charisma and badassery. He said enough oppression is enough and managed to united the all the Jin tribes before they called themselves Jin, btfo the Liao so hard they all fled to the west, then established the kingdom of Jin.
Well the Song also played a big role in this progression
First they fought and lost to the Liao numerous time before, (border dispute) even paid a huge sum of "war fee" to them, YEARLY. Truly the ultimate cuck they were. So they saw the raise of Jin as chance a new episode of vengeance for Liao. They backed Jin up in their conquest against Liao, sent troops to claim back the lands they lost in earlier dispute, all with a supposed allied pact. But their own military campaign was a huge fucking mess and turned into a disaster, despite having the absolute number advantage and the Jin pretty much carried them hard with all the battle they won. Still they did good favor for the Jin
Second, this is very hilarious, but after their failed campaign the Jin had to take those lands themselves and gave it back to Song as an act of friendship between 2 nations (oh the honest barbarian) But this event set foot in Aguda's mind as he saw through their nature as a bunch of cucks not a mighty super power. Thanks to this latter Jin never stop their song invasion because they know the cuck must kneel before the alpha.
Aguda, as a smart man he was, also grab whatever culture aspects of the Song he see fit and built their own, like the writing structure, ruling system, using Han people as officials, etc.
In the end of the story, Song bite their own ass hard so don't be cucks like them guys.

high chance that it's a myth,

*blocks your path*

Problem, father?

*pull out empress Wu*
how about your dynasty?

That bitch is smiling, she's WANTING it.

I finished watching Kenneth J. Hammond's "From Yao to Mao: 5000 Years of Chinese History" from TTC yesterday. I didn't know much about China before and felt that it was a good entry into Chinese history.

What fascinated me the most were the literati class, the constant collapse and reunification periods and the influence of the steppe hordes. (P.S.: I was also surprised to hear that the wife to Kublai Khan, 13th cent., might've been a Nestorian Christian, or at least that her mother definitely was one.)

you know the Li clan was actually not pure blood han. Before the Tang there was a war with 5 tribes of nomard, some may from central Asia, raiding all over China. If I'm not wrong Li are descendants of one if these 5

>you know the Li clan was actually not pure blood han.
Blood purity and the Han ethnicity are anachronistic concepts,patrilineal descent was king.

The pre dynastic Li clan traced their ancestry to the Zhaojun branch,eventually adopting the Longxi branch as their ancestors.

Xianbei aristocrats intermarried with the Han gentry yet despite having Han mothers and wives they never thought of themselves as Han.

You mean the attempted assassination of Ying Zheng by Jing Ke?

Sauce?

yes, that's the one
kingdom manga following a literally who general in the Tan army, not very historical lel

sorry, I mean the Qin army

can you translate a japanese text i have?