What went wrong?

>birthplace of Western civilization
>had colonies all over Italy and Anatolia
>held one's own against the Persian Empire
>defeated the Persians and conquered the known world
>become synonymous with high culture and learning
>we wuz Romanz n shit (Byzantine Empire)
Today: a laughing stock.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissance
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

Ottoman occupation ruined pretty much all the balkans, greece included

they blew their wad as a society way early
was a good blow though

the eternal turk

Basically the Ancient and modern Greeks aren't really culturally the same people, the two connections are language (although Ancient Greek is unintelligible to a modern Greek) and broad location.

During the Byzantine Empire they identified as Romans, and in some places continued to do so well into the Ottoman period.

Modern Greece was artificially created by both local nationalists trying to stitch together a history and Britain, France and Russia trying to weaken the Ottoman Empire.

Since the Ottomans have gone there really isn't much purpose for modern Greece to exist.

Greek identity is a random selection of 'good' things from their past while dropping the 'bad' things (while this is true of most nationalities, the Balkans tend to take this to an absurd and often genocidal level).

If you want a good laugh try to discuss homosexuality in Ancient Greece with a Greek Nationalist, they often go a bit mental arguing it never happened despite all those kylix of Patroclus playing with Achilles' balls.

The Romans centralized Greek achievement and culture, when the Roman economy failed, Greek culture became unsustainable and disappear through a continuation of weak economy, government, and Ottoman expansion.

well how could you devide the current greek land in the balkan peninsula?Cause they are greek-speaking christians so ottoman,turkish or other non european identity doesnot collide with their background.also,slavic identity also does not apply and that is proven by historians.

In cities that were populated during medieval period in greece always the roman/hellenic element stayed strong.when i say roman i mean byzantine roman(romioi or rωmania as a country name).all coastal cities and most islands remained populated with greek people.

>birthplace of Western civilization
Hate this meme. Ancient Greece was a vastly different society than any modern Western nation and valued much different traits than we do today. Same with Rome pre-Christianity.

>>birthplace of Western civilization
It is not the birthplace of Western civilization. The urheimat of the Indo-European languages is the birthplace of the West, which is located around modern-day Ukraine (i.e., the majority of Indo-European specialists support the Kurgan Hypothesis).

You fail to understand that the language is only one aspect of culture and civilization.

not a meme also btw

>Indo-Europeans contributing with anything but language

Pick one.

Agriculture and metallurgy was already established when they came.

The same reason Latin America, South Italy, and Africa are all shitty countries, colonialism and foreign occupation

what about based south asia?

Nothing, Greece is perfect

>although Ancient Greek is unintelligible to a modern Greek
Ancient greek to a modern greek is like speaking french to an italian, he'll understand most of the shit you're gonna tell him except some specific words etc.

>although Ancient Greek is unintelligible to a modern Greek
Not entirely, but mostly true if we are talking classical Attic Greek.
Koine Greek (300 BC – 300 AD i.e. Hellenistic and Roman times Greek) is intelligible to most people though.
The rest is pretty accurate.

I live there.

Ireland
>colonized oppressed backwater suffering from famines and poverty
>today one of the richest countries in the world

Finland
>a poor peasant swamp shithole on the periphery of the civilized world
>today one of the most developed, high tech nations in the world

Iraq
>cradle of civilization, pioneers of statehood and culture
>today a wartorn shithole full of goatfucking retards

Germany
>a forested backwater full of savage, warlike barbarians
>today one of the richest and most developed nations in Europe and pacifist to the bone

The better question is why do you expect cultures and nations to stay constant?

I mostly agree with these posts, but what do you mean dropping the 'bad' things? I don't think that's true

t. Greek

500 years of Turkish oppression + Socialism.

>The better question is why do you expect cultures and nations to stay constant?
This. Lots of countries/nations were advanced and the top dog at certain periods and then turned to shit. Maybe in several hundred years US and Europe will be the shittiest places on Earth and something else will be the next best thing.

This guy gets it. Rhetoric you hear trying to tie modern societies back to ancient civilizations is almost always an attempt to invent and cultivate nationalism rather than real history.

Muslims fucked up everything in the balkans till this day. Dont forget the Ottoman Empire only break up in 1922.

>Christianity

Gemistus Pletho tried to solve the "Christian Question" by converting Greece to Zoroastrianism(Chaldean Oracles) but it was just Neo Platonism.

s-s-stop it, y-your wrong!

This actor claims to be 100% Greek.

I see the resemblance.

...

this is why building tall is the best way to go
baka at you widefags thinking size means everything (except where it counts for you lmao)

All that shit was so long ago. Youre only as good as your last envelope. That's like saying for you
>Swam faster than any other sperm
>fertilized egg to create a human
>survived birthing process, proceeded to learn to shit in toilet
>mastered the art of walking
>learned to tie own shoes

what happened?

They got into industrialization late because they weren't a Imperial Mediterranean trading nation like France, Britain, or the Netherlands; or were a close proximity to them for trade and competition to mimic them in competition, like with Germany or Austria. The former got pretty large and in charge because of wanting to get off the dependence of Ottoman trade routes, which Greece was near-by, so despite laying on a historic geographically important trade area they really didn't benefit off it as much as one might expect (kind of like Egypt being an agricultural giant and being rich from it meant jack-shit once industrialization came around).

Couple with that, the Mediterranean attitude just doesn't work-well with prospering with industrial economies. You can blame corruption or getting into the EU while being too underdevelopped, or being poor for most of the late 19th and early 20th century, but many Scandi and Central European nations were also. Fact is, nations that have obtained the best economic prosperity these days are those who have and currently are filled with Spergs that obsess over trivial details in their work and with data about their efficiency that they're always aiming at growing and doing better. And it makes sense, for nations like Finland or Germany the lack of sunlight during the Winter months and enjoyable traveling sights that don't require you to hike dozens of kilometers in the woods makes the land around you seem boring and makes you feel more existential about your life, that those working there put their time into excelling better at their work or committing to some mundane autistic hobby of theirs'. With Greece, the scenery, more social culture from not being sperglords, and local history makes the resident more content and modest.

Well, what you described is not a small amount of time. That's a period of prominence longer than nearly any other distinct civilization on Earth, barring China. The reality is, no region or country remains powerful forever in such a dynamic region as the Mediterranean and Europe in general. Even then, Constantinople was considered the wealthiest and greatest city in the world for hundreds of years, yet it is not included in the modern state for example.

Basically EVERYTHING changed with the Ottoman Empire. Greece's future would lie with the evolution of Western culture, renaissance and the like, if it hadn't been conquered, perhaps the European intellectual developments themselves would originate from Greek regions, yet the Turkish occupation reduced such reciprocal influence and contribution to obscurity. Considering that the Ottoman Empire was a severely draining empires for its vassals, it's no surprise that post-Ottoman countries including Greece are so shitty.

From its inception as a modern state, Greece has been unsurprisingly poor and drained of international influence, while suffering disproportionately in WW2 and the Civil War. It has a meagre population and doesn't hold historical regions like Constantinople and Asia Minor territories that elevated their influence.

Also, something many people neglect, it's not some small dot country in the middle of civilized western Europe, it's neighbored by other poor post-Ottoman countries and itself forever exists under the shadow of a Turkish menace that STILL threatens unprovoked invasion. What do you expect? (That's not to say their modern mentality doesn't play a role, but its historical and geographical circumstances do anything but favour them)

tl;dr Turks

great analysis,it makes sense for a lot of things in south mediterranian europe

...

Balkans are cursed. LMAO
t. Serb

Things change over time.
It's as simple as that.

They also spread their myths.

Metaphors based off their mythic imagery were part and parcel of the language: dragon-slaying, brothers that're progenitors of mankind, importance of bulls in creation myth, and so much more.

You can use linguistic evidence and comparative method to reconstruct the Proto-Indo-European religion:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion

Their hierarchy, myths, and so forth were heavily influential.

Sun in the rock myth also.

None of that is relevance. Indo-European is much more relevant as a language than whatever myth.

>defeated the Persians and conquered the known world
>got repelled by Afghans and Indians
hmmm

>None of that is relevance.
I mean, who are you to determine what is relevant?

Many scholars can't agree on what constitutes the beginning of "Western ethos". Some argue it's PIE, some argue it's the Persians, and others argue it's the Greeks or Romans.

The question we should ask is what factors determine whether a failed empire goes to shit or continues to shine in a lessened capacity. For example, Britain more or less gave up most of its colonial holdings willingly and ended up pretty okay. Meanwhile look at its ex-rival Spain. Not so well off but still better than how Babylon and Persia ended up.

>I mean, who are you to determine what is relevant?

You're the one that originally said

>It is not the birthplace of Western civilization.
Yeah. Some niggers spreading age ol' mythology is fascinating to see how it affected their culture but it's not as relevant as the Greeks.

Are you that Zoroastrian-Aryan LARPer from the other thread?

pls respond

I'm saying most scholars can't even agree what the birthplace of the West is.

>Are you that Zoroastrian-Aryan LARPer from the other thread?
No, but Zoroastrianism was pretty important to the West.

Hegel, Joseph Campbell, and Nietzsche argued that too.

"Zarathustra was the first to consider the fight of good and evil the very wheel in the machinery of things: the transposition of morality into the metaphysical realm, as a force, cause, and end in itself, is his work."
—Nietzsche, Ecce Homo, "Why I Am a Destiny", §3, trans. Walter Kaufmann

I have more modern scholarly sources arguing for that too.

>conquered the known world
That was Macedonians, and they did it by having longer sticks than anybody else

>I'm saying most scholars can't even agree what the birthplace of the West is.
It's contested, but the vast majority of people say Greece because that's where our values come from.

>Greece because that's where our values come from.
The core values of the western world is skepticism and that was instigated by three German dudes.

Well, Judeo-Christian heritage is largely indebted to Zoroastrianism. I mean, progressivism and transcendental moral dualism were an invention of Zarathustra:

The ideas of paradise (Avestan word pairidaēza), transcendental moral dualism, light = goodness & darkness = evil metaphors, angels (yazatas), personified evil figures (e.g., Asmodeus is based off daeva Aēšma), eschatological reward and punishment (Chinvat Bridge), Day of Judgment (Frashokereti), rigid duality between truth (asha) and lie (druj), savior of light (Saoshyant), magic (art of the 'magus'), and the resurrection of the dead (Yasna 19) descended from Zoroastrian influence. Read Chapter 7 of Michael Stausberg's Zarathustra and Zoroastrianism for the most up-to-date scholarly research regarding this topic.

They're Christian Turks.

I did Attic Greek at Uni so that may be where I learned this.

>Judeo-Christian

>JUDEO

You can't hide forever David.

Or you can just say Christianity.

Christianity is largely based off Zoroastrianism. Of course, there are differences (e.g., the Incarnation in quite unique) and also Greek influences.

Utterly heretical

You Zoroastrian?

>they often go a bit mental arguing it never happened despite all those kylix of Patroclus playing with Achilles' balls.
Kek

>bust of an ephebos

C'mon, user.

>Gee All the third worlders should stop blaming the west for everything
>Any Region in Europe that is underdevoloped is because of Tatar, Turks or Moors

>my country is in bad shape because of evil Ottomans and evil EU/NATO
>other countries are in bad shape because they are bad people

t. every Balkanite including Greeks.

Greeks lost all of their geniuses to Italy when the Ottomans conquered them: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissance

Basically it was a combination of brain drain and the 500 years of Ottoman rule that followed. Doesn't help that Greece also had an extremely leftist government after being free from them (they still kinda do it today).

which are your sources in this analysis?I am very interested to know more about them

What leftist goverment are you refering to?Kapodistrias the revolution goverment or SYRIZA dont make me laugh?leftist like marxist?what in earth did you suggets?

>Maybe in several hundred years US and Europe will be the shittiest places on Earth and something else will be the next best thing.
US is already heading this way, at least major cities. It's objectively safer to live in Baghdad than it is to live in Detroit.

>Germany pacifist to the bone

>Part of agressive miliary alliance that invades 2 countries per year and arms Jihadists for fun