Is it true that had the germans advanced on to moscow instead of that completely dumb kiev move...

the japs are not going to invade the SU, ever

they have their hands full in China

Yes because they would've just fucking carried on without the "spiritual" centre of that whole regime
Even after all they have experienced in the past months are defeat upon defeats

Almost everything you've said in this post is wrong.

For starters, Siberians were not called for in November. operationbarbarossa.net/the-siberian-divisions-and-the-battle-for-moscow-in-1941-42/ They were already arriving in early August.

Secondly, I have no idea why you keep insisting that there are no troops in the region. Where the fuck do you think the men who did those Soviet counterattacks came from?

Why are bothering with this? OP is at best a retarded LARPer

yes those famous russian counterattacks which failed one by one.
The only succesful ones were after stalingrad but we all know what happened over there.

Yelnya was a success you moron. In any case, the success or failure of the attacks is irrelevant for the present discussion, their mere existence proves that there were Soviet forces in the area, and that Moscow was not "wide open".

On some level, it's to show to anyone who might be reading this thread. But you're right, this is a waste of time.

I learned some stuff, thanks man.

not an argument
not an argument
plain wrong, they had 3 conditions, 2 of them were literally the germans capture moscow the second is the relocation of the siberian infantry as they didn't want another khalkim gol

Not wide open in a literal sense but those guys were underequipped, demoralized after those nearly 3 months. Do you think those would've stopped 3 panzer groups?

As opposed to the thinner, even more underequipped forces they had in October? Somehow, I don't think morale was noticeably higher in the autumn than the late summer; I think they'd have managed

How on earth would they have thinner and more underequipped forces when reinforcements were continually pouring in throughout the months the germans wasted?
And lets not forget there was no winter in september/end of october when they would've probably reached moscow and there was no 600km or more exhaustion from the decision to kiev.

>How on earth would they have thinner and more underequipped forces when reinforcements were continually pouring in throughout the months the germans wasted?

Do you have a reading problem, or a thinking problem? I've already mentioned it several times in this thread. They made several enormous and failed counteroffensives, which, SURPRISE, got a lot of their troops killed or otherwise taken out of the action. If the Germans are attacking in theater instead of going after Kiev, those counteroffensives don't happen, and the troops are sitting there, in the Germans way.

And you still haven't explained why you think the troops in Kiev will just sit around uselessly while this happens, which is a fairly stupid oversight.

>And lets not forget there was no winter in september/end of october when they would've probably reached moscow and there was no 600km or more exhaustion from the decision to kiev.

There was also no snow until after they stopped advancing, and there actually was considerable exhaustion in August already. history.army.mil/html/books/104/104-21/cmhPub_104-21.pdf Cut to page 62 if you want a basic survey level report on the situation, but they were already starting to run into strain in late July, nevermind later.

Seriously, what is your deal? Are you a Wehraboo? Some sort of strident anti-communist? I don't get why you're so ideologically committed into this "The Germans had an easy win that they just didn't see for some reason" in the face of all the actual facts on the ground. You're basically spouting memes and expecting it to be taken seriously. Even here, that's not how it works. But usually meme-spouters will at least acknowledge actual evidence contrary to their beliefs, which you seem strongly resistant to.

my man they would have got obliterated even if they sit idly by waiting for the germans to advance on them
And no the troops 600km from moscow with little to no tanks wont do shit against an army bent on capturing moscow.
While I agree that they were severely exhausted even then they went to Kiev GOT BACK from Kiev and then launched Typhoon going into the winter with the autumn rasputitsa already being on the roads, and even WITH all this they still got an index finger distance to Moscow.
There is no reason to believe they wouldn't have been succesful in the face of this evidence
I dismiss the rest of your post as bitching.

to be completely frank there was almost no way the Germans could have ever hoped to take Moscow, even if they got inside the city, the battle would just devolved into stalingrad-style house-to-house room-by-room fighting in a city of 5 million+ men that the Wehrmacht could never hope to secure 100%, especially by November '41, the earliest they could've made it to the city if they just made a straight shot for Moscow instead of swinging past Kiev.

By the time the Germans reached Moscow, the Wehrmacht's supply logistics was strained beyond its limits, fuel and ammunition were touch to come by, and less than a third of their total motorized vehicles were disabled or destroyed, meaning most of the Germans who were making their advance on the capital would do so on foot and with little armored support.

Military History visualized has some great videos on just how bad of stakes the Germans were in at the end of 1941, definitely a great watch.

youtube.com/watch?v=A_3R-Rkn_98

youtube.com/watch?v=ft-dYaZKxwU

youtube.com/watch?v=a3zFG14CqB8

>my man they would have got obliterated even if they sit idly by waiting for the germans to advance on them

They would have gotten battered, and almost certainly failed to stop the advance, but they would have slowed it down, caused a hell of a headache, much like the historical approach during Typhoon.

>And no the troops 600km from moscow with little to no tanks wont do shit against an army bent on capturing moscow.

Well, except attack along their flanks, or maybe even do something crazy, like attack against AGS (half Romanian and Hungarian!) and threaten Ploesti, which causes Germany to lose the war right then and there if it falls because lolnooil.

>While I agree that they were severely exhausted even then they went to Kiev GOT BACK from Kiev and then launched Typhoon going into the winter with the autumn rasputitsa already being on the roads, and even WITH all this they still got an index finger distance to Moscow.

They also spent quite a bit of time between operations refitting, which you seem to ignore.

>There is no reason to believe they wouldn't have been succesful in the face of this evidence

What evidence? Your own autistic idiocy? For about the fifth time: The defenses extant in August were HEAVIER than what were extant in October. If they couldn't do it historically, they certainly couldn't do it in your idiotic "plan", even if the forces in Kiev do nothing. And they won't.

This will be my last post in the thread. You are clearly extremely ignorant in what was going on in the Eastern Front in 1941, and unwilling to actually learn a damn thing.

Just who is ignorant when someone is so clearly certain in something they won't even consider the opposite of it?

>American education

>no argumentx3
this is certainly no argument

Is it true "muh flank" was planned? Led in by a retreat. German grease does freeze.

Hitler's generals were wrong and Hitler was right. Hitler wanted to push to Caucasus from the start to sever oil supplies but his autistic generals who learn nothing from history were obsessed with capping moscow as if that would magically win the war.