Should the Jewish state have been established in East Prussia instead of Isreal after WWII...

>most important region in the baltic sea

why? I get that it's important for Russia because it gives them an icefree port, other than that it looks like any other region in the area.

>the most populated and rich region in the baltic Vs

Most of the population was evacuated in 1945 and many of the few remaining civilians died during the battle and the aftermath. Much of it was properly ruined, so the jews would have to do a fair deal of reconstruction before it's somewhat rich again.

the area that would become Israel was fairly shitty at the time so rebuilding the place wouldn't have been much different

>Give the Jews their own state
>Decades later there are still millions of Jews living somewhere else

In eastern Prusia the most important rivers flow and it is a fertile plain

What about the Jewish Autonomous Oblast?

The frenchs have a state and there are frenchs in every country of the world, the same with germans, chinese, etc. What is your point?

>Jewish Autonomous Oblast
>Located in fucking Manchuria
>Less than 1% Jewish
>Only piece of land other than Israel to be officially Jewish

An epic Russian meme

>Jews wanted nohing less than the holy land that had been promised to them in 1917

Wouldn't they begrudgingly give in eventually if the great powers make it clear that they're not going to get israel?

>A Jewish state in Prussia would also be unsustainable in any form besides as an Oblast of the USSR

Many countries of that size are perfectly viable

>it would have been crushed by nations with more valid claims to the region (such as Poland or Germany

would've resulted in serious repercussions for that country. obviously the soviet union would have to agree with the creation of a jewish state there, it would be a sufficient deterrent for any possible aggressor

An epic rusian try for a ruse you mean

>Wouldn't they begrudgingly give in eventually if the great powers make it clear that they're not going to get israel?
No, Jews were mass-migrating to Mandatory Palestine in the 20s and 30s because they wanted to get in touch with their spiritual heritage. If Britain reneged on the Balfour declaration, the Zionist Jews would just continue migrating to Palestine while more secular jews would not be interested in moving to a country with no connection to their people's history and would stay where they were living before. Same reason why Soviet Jews didn't want to go to the Jewish Oblast in Siberia.

>would've resulted in serious repercussions for that country
This is highly dubious. A Jewish state in Europe would transfer the middle eastern muslim attitudes towards Israel to the countries bordering Prussia-Israel and probably Christendom as a whole. A war to dislodge this Israel from Europe would happen the moment it becomes possible, like the USSR falling apart.

>A Jewish state in Europe would transfer the middle eastern muslim attitudes towards Israel to the countries bordering Prussia-Israel and probably Christendom as a whole. A war to dislodge this Israel from Europe would happen the moment it becomes possible, like the USSR falling apart.
Not OP, but it's all a question of whether the USSR would allow this hypothetical state to be a Western proxy or not. History has shown us that Soviets weren't willing to tolerate any independent state in Eastern Europe, so your scenario of Polish or Baltic hostility would not have happened. The Soviet would simply not have allowed it, just as they put a lid on all the other ethnic antagonisms in their own territories. Therefore this state would probably fare ok, despite having to put up with decades of Soviet style economics. And if it did somehow end up coming under the Western influence, the Soviets would be doubly careful not to provoke a war within its sphere of influence cause that would risk nuclear war. Post-Soviet era would also not see any hostility as the Eastern European states would be too busy currying favor with Western Europe to get economic aid or entrance into the EU.

>continue migrating to Palestine

Won't happen if you don't let them in anymore.

>stay where they were living before.

After WWII, hundreds of thousands of Jews were in DP camps in Germany. Those, as well as the Jews staying in Soviet or Arab shitholes would have probably preferred moving to an independent Jewish state over their current location.

>Soviet Jews didn't want to go to the Jewish Oblast in Siberia

Because Palestine was still an option and because the Autonomous Jewish Oblast is in the middle of nowhere, one of the most unattractive places imaginable. Also, it wasn't an independent state, just an oblast.

>A Jewish state in Europe would transfer the middle eastern muslim attitudes towards Israel to the countries bordering Prussia-Israel

Unlikely. Arabs are mad because they lost their land (that is religiously important on top of that) for no reason. Most Arabs have a feeling of solidarity for their fellow Arabs in Palestine, whereas most Europeans wouldn't give a shit about Germans losing that land in favor of Jews. Germans themselves have come to terms with losing the land to Russians and Poles, they probably wouldn't have chimped out if the Jews got it. In fact, they probably would have thought that the Jews deserve it more than the Russians.

Why should the Jews have gotten any state?

Why shouldn’t the Eskimos get their own state? They’re far more of a definitive society then the Jews, who are uniformly European.

>They’re far more of a definitive society then the Jews, who are uniformly European.
Where did this meme come from?

That doesn't translate to population density.

let's say if the jews would've received Prussia instead of Israel, then there would be no jews left after 1945

>East Prussia
Ok guys, now just gere me out.

What if,just hear me out guys, what if we give the jews...

KAMCHATKA

All of it.

The whole penninsula.

I know it's cold as balls and in the middle of nowhere and full of bears but they get the whole thing to themselves.

And we evacuate it for them, they get everything south of that thin bit.

I actually thought this myself OP, instead thinking the kallingrad oblast would have been a good idea (not realizing the pop.denisty is only 450,000 people).

desu something like Guyana or Utah would have been better.

>its full of ash spewing volcanoes

They'd feel right at home.

> reality is a meme

The Romans scattered the Jews to the far corners of the empire (those who didn’t die along the way or who were killed out right) and they found themselves in small bands surrounded by a vastly larger native population, thus Judaism became a proselytizing religion so as not to be assimilated by their neighbors.

Jews actively courted any and all converts to maintain their numbers and culture, with the result that they became Europeans.

The irony is that the true genetic descendants of the Israelites are the modern day Palestinians, who never left.

>tfw no independent Prussian, Yiddish-speaking, Jewish state.

I TRIED SO HARD AND GOT SO FAR

I like this

>The irony is that the true genetic descendants of the Israelites are the modern day Palestinians, who never left.
I'm very sceptical of this.

They didn't receive Israel until after 1945.

>Jews on a volcano studded shithole full of dangerous wildlife.

It'd be just like Morrowind.

>thus Judaism became a proselytizing religion
[citations needed]

>Jews actively courted any and all converts to maintain their numbers and culture, with the result that they became Europeans.
Lots of Jews don't live in Europe, and for the majority of their history Jews were not majority European.

Jews are ethnically heterogeneous. Yes, Ashkenazis are by far the largest ethnic subdivision but about 20% of Jews are not European.

Which part of Germany had historically the most significant Jewish population?
I doubt it was Prussia.

Yeah right, because pale atheist Europeans like Sarah Silverman are the real investors of a part of the middle east

They are the real semites despite bumming around Europe for a thousand years

Oh right, and God certainly gave Israel to these Europeans lol

It all makes sense

>pic related: a common middle eastern female

Except they'd have tons of land, be close to daddy US and papa Russia and no one around them to fuck with.

Its perfect.

That clusterfuck of princelets in the middle it would appear followed by the part that went to Poland following WW1.

East Prussia looks to have had a good bit though.

>ashkenazis

The same 'jews' most likely to be secular.

Sorry to burst your bubble but they are no more jewish than any other European atheist is.

For most of Germany's history Jews were centred in the Rhineland, namely Worms, Mainz, and Speyer.

Pic related is the distribution of German Jews in 1890

I'm not saying I believe that white Ashkenazim are pure Israelites.

I'm saying I would like to see some evidence that Palestinians are. Rather I would assume that they're very mixed with other Arabs given that for most of the past 2000 years the middle-east had seen a shitload of migration both and in and out.

>he thinks Jews are exclusively a religious group

At least Palestinians are semites, something askenazis can never claim.

A DNA study of Jews and Palestinian Arabs (including Bedouins) found that these were more closely related to each other than to people of the Arabian Peninsula, Ethiopian Semitic-speaking people (Amharas, Tigrayans , Harari and Tigre people), and the Arabic speakers of North Africa.

>mfw a white European askenazis says I'm anti-semitic as they call for Palestinian blood

>The same 'jews' most likely to be secular.
That's because they're the smart ones.

Abraham and Moses would be rolling in their graves.

So-called 'secular judaism' is a completely modern phenomenon. It only popped up in the late 1800's and was mainly pushed by political zionism.

It's a crock, a fake identity.

Not that guy but if you have the study why not post a link to it

Whatever they are, they are not jewish.

It's a completely false identity.

>At least Palestinians are semites, something askenazis can never claim.
So are Ashkenazim on the count that "Semites" are a linguistic group that includes Hebrew.

>A DNA study of Jews and Palestinian Arabs (including Bedouins) found that these were more closely related to each other than to people of the Arabian Peninsula
Source?
Also doesn't that somewhat contradict your claim?

>they are not Jewish
Why not?

Sorry it's in this article

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people

Ashkenazi people are not semites. Palestinians are semites.

Which makes the crocodile anti-Semitism cries of the Ashkenazi all the more cruel and terrible.

>Phone poster
Hmmmmm

Judaism describes the religious descendants of Abraham and followers of the Abrahamic deity pre-Christ.

Secular atheist judaism is a modern perversion of that lineage.

If you don't believe in God and don't follow the Talmud and Torah you're no more Jewish than anyone else on earth

What you are is identity pretenders

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_secularism

Here you go. So-called 'secular judaism' is a recent phenomenon.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_secularism

It's a product of political zionists and a completely fabricated identity.

I advise you read the cited study because it's not saying that Palestinians are true Israelites and Jews aren't, as a matter of fact it's saying quite the opposite. That Jews have a clear middle-eastern heritage and really, aren't actually that different from Palestinians (and strangely, are even less different from Kurdish Muslims).

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/

Ayyyyy check me out I am totally from the middle East my people deserve land there lololololol

I'm totally not just an atheist European born in America!

God gave Israel to me!

>I'm saying I would like to see some evidence that Palestinians are.

The Roman Jewish Diaspora meant that the widely scattered small bands of Jews could not maintain a viable breeding population; they HAD to accept outsiders as converted Jews or they would have been breed out of existence.

> the middle-east had seen a shitload of migration both and in and out.

Nowhere near as much migration or intermarriage as happened during the Roman Jewish Diaspora.

The Hollywood myth is that the ancient Jews looked like Charlton Heston, when in fact they looked like Yasser Arafat.

>If you don't believe in God and don't follow the Talmud and Torah you're no more Jewish than anyone else on earth
Why not?

They have their own country with nukes, I say they can call themselves Jews all they like.

So, basically modern Hessen and the Palatinate.

It's fake. The only real Jews in all of Israel are the Orthadox and the atheist pretenders hate them.

It's like saying you're a secular Christian lol it's nonsense

...

>ayyyyy I'm a Hindu

Do you follow any Hindu religious beliefs or ceremonies? Do you practice the Hindu religion?

>lolololol no I am a secular atheist Hindu rofl

Wat

Look at this middle easterner right here.

She obviously deserves land in Israel! Because of her obvious middle eastern lineage.

>If you don't believe in God and don't follow the Talmud and Torah you're no more Jewish than anyone else on earth
Two things.
1. That doesn't address my concern. Which is that I want to see some evidence that Palestinians are true Israelites. But don't worry about it because another user linked some. It just also says that so are Jews.
2. Jews have been able to accept outsiders since biblical times. They've never been a strict ethno-religion like say modern Zoroastrianism.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Ruth

>Nowhere near as much migration or intermarriage as happened during the Roman Jewish Diaspora.
Do you have a citation for that?
>The Hollywood myth is that the ancient Jews looked like Charlton Heston, when in fact they looked like Yasser Arafat.
And this?

And diamonds

Wait, she's a Jew?

>lol lets just cut up and resettle countries at random, it's just like my video gamezz!!!

>It's like saying you're a secular Christian lol it's nonsense
Except Jews by virtue of their insular, international existence have cultivated a secular identity as well. If they retain that despite being atheists I wouldn't object to them calling themselves Jews, which they do.

Additionally western atheists basically are "secular Christians" since very few of them ever actually bother to reassess their Christian morals and traditions.

>I'm a secular atheist member of ___________ religion

It's nonsense. Look pal I'm Irish. That's my lineage.

But I am not such a faggot as to claim I am druish.

You are though. You would call me druish even though I don't follow the druidic religion and my parents do not.

It's the same thing. I'm not a fucking druid and you're not a fucking jew.

Just stop

That's basically what happened with the real Israel.

No you damn fool no.

When a European agrees that God is not real they stop calling themselves Christians.

Not you though! You cling to Abrahams corpse like your life depends on it. Leave the holy man alone already.

You ain't no jew.

I wouldn't actually, nor am I Jew, nor have I claimed to be a Jew, nor does anything you just said have anything to with anything in my post.

Well modern secular 'jews' do this all the time.

Ah but you see the Jews aren't just a religion but also a nation in their own right.

>You ain't no jew.
THASS RITE

They are not a nation lol they have citizenship in nations all over the globe.

There are no atheist jews. It does not exist. These people are liars and identity thieves.

>They are not a nation lol they have citizenship in nations all over the globe.
Two things.
1. That's not what I meant by "nation". "Nation" doesn't necessarily just mean "state", in this context I'm meaning it more in the sense of "people". Case in point: Circassians are a nation despite not having a state of their own.
2. Even in that sense all Jews are eligible for citizenship to one very specific nation-state regardless of where they're born or whether or not they believe in god.

>There are no atheist jews. It does not exist. These people are liars and identity thieves.
If you asked an Orthodox Rabbi if an atheist can be a Jew the answer would be yes. They'd just be a really bad Jew given that provided your mother is Jewish you will always be fully Jewish according to them.

Lol Abraham and Moses would be rolling in their graves.

Judaism isn't a hyperdimensional pseudo-identity which has no standards for classification.

Or maybe it is. I guess I'm Jewish now. Why?

Because like all the secular jews I just chose to call myself one rather than not.

>secular muslims
>secular christians
>secular mormons
>secular jews

It's a joke.

Why not Iceland or Greenland?

>Lol Abraham and Moses would be rolling in their graves.
To be pedantic Abraham wasn't a Jew.

>Judaism isn't a hyperdimensional pseudo-identity which has no standards for classification.
You're right. It does have a classification, that being that your mother is Jewish. Which it is entirely possible for an atheist to fulfil.

>Or maybe it is. I guess I'm Jewish now. Why?
Alright that's cool.

>Muslim kid decides not to believe in God or follow Islam
Not a Muslim

>Chrisian kid decides not to believe in God or follow Christianity
Not a Christian

>Jewish kid decides not to believe in God or follow Judaism
You'll always be a jew! And your kids! And their kids too!

It's patently ridiculous

Because they were ethnically cleansing East Prussia anyway. Why not settle it with Jews and leave the Palestinians alone rather than committing two ethnic cleansings?

It's the utilitarian thing to do.

Take your complaints to the rabbis, bruh.

It's like the cult you can never escape.

Not even your great grandkids can escape.

Rabbis who accept atheism in their ranks are cuckolded fools

This is the stance of even the most hardline Orthodox rabbis alive.

If your mother is Jewish you are fully Jewish, unconditionally, forever.

So it's truly a cult from which there is no escape.

Even casting off it's most basic tenets is acceptable.

Well then the concept of 'jewish' is even more of a joke than expected

>So it's truly a cult from which there is no escape.
Not really. You can convert to any religion you like and provided you don't start proselytizing or live in a particularly conservative community the other Jews would probably be nice enough to treat you as you'd prefer. But Judaism is still viewed more like an interminable contract between oneself and god rather than a philosophy that can be opted in and out of, which I personally think is a better way to approach it.

>Even casting off it's most basic tenets is acceptable.
It's not acceptable. It's apostasy and your rabbi (probably among other people) would not like it one bit.
But you're still a Jew, even in death you're still going to be a Jew.

>Won't happen if you don't let them in anymore.
Britain was literally deporting Zionists from Palestine right up until WW2 and every year more of them came. Unless Palestine turns into an unrealistic dictatorship, there is no way to stop it from happening.

>Those, as well as the Jews staying in Soviet or Arab shitholes would have probably preferred moving to an independent Jewish state over their current location.
Soviet Jews maybe, but why would Jews from Yemen, North Africa or Mesopotamia leave their lives behind to live in a Jewish state? They only left to Israel because they were being massacred after the first Israeli-Arab war. many would like to go back to their own countries to this day infact.

>one of the most unattractive places imaginable
Prussia after WW2 was the most devastated area of Germany, which was basically a country-sized Stalingrad. Sure, Prussia's conditions aren't as harsh as those in Siberia, but the quality of life for any settlers would be considerably harsher than those in Israel. The Jewish state of Prussia would be a country that is Jewish in name only and large parts of the population would, after a few decades at most, be German, Russian, Polish and Ukrainian, with Jews comprising less than 10% of the population.

>Unlikely. Arabs are mad because they lost their land (that is religiously important on top of that) for no reason.
It wasn't for no reason, they lost it because they themselves refused the UN partition plan because they thought they could drive the Jews into the sea and have everything, but instead they got their asses kicked and they bitch about made up genocides to this day. Israel was generous enough to actually let them keep their 3rd holiest site despite the fact that it is THE holiest site in all of Judaism, all in the hopes of eventual peace and reconciliation with them.

>Judaism is still viewed more like an interminable contract between oneself and god

Someone says flat out God is a joke and you still tell them they have a contract with him? How petty

>even in death you're still going to be a jew

That's a horror story since there are no set criteria to being Jewish.

By your standards an Australian aboriginal female can declare herself Jewish and sire a forever existing lineage of jewish progeny.

How ridiculous. I used to think that Judaism had higher standards than other religions.

Come to find out there is no objective standard at all.

>Someone says flat out God is a joke and you still tell them they have a contract with him? How petty
Yep.

Even if they're not fulfilling their end of the bargain they're still locked into the contract.

>That's a horror story since there are no set criteria to being Jewish.
Except there is and that's
a) Your mother being Jewish
or
b) Formally converting to Judaism.

Once either of these has been fulfilled there's no going back. As far as god and the other Jews are concerned you're a Jew forever.

>Most Arabs have a feeling of solidarity for their fellow Arabs in Palestine, whereas most Europeans wouldn't give a shit about Germans losing that land in favor of Jews.
If they had actual solidarity with Palestinians, they wouldn't force them to live in ghettoes. Israel-palestine business is just a very convenient bogeyman for Arab leaders to trot out whenever things in their countries go tits up (even things like shark attacks are blamed on Israel and the jews).

>Germans themselves have come to terms with losing the land to Russians and Poles, they probably wouldn't have chimped out if the Jews got it. In fact, they probably would have thought that the Jews deserve it more than the Russians.
Mere conjecture, but even if we assume that German post war attitudes develop exactly like they did in our world because of magic, Poland and Post-Soviet Russia would still be looking to get land from Prussia-Israel.

It's ridiculous and based on nothing but peer pressure.

It's like The Game. Once you know about the Game you are playing the Game. If you think about the Game then you have lost the Game and must declare so.

It's so obviously fake.

>hey kid, you're a jew
>what? No. Why?
>Because your mom is a jew lol
>rabbi my mom is an aboriginal Australian please sell your wares somewhere else
>look kid, you're a jew now come to synagogue
>get the hell away from me you creepy old beardo
>doesn't matter haha your kids are jews too
>how is this possible....

Being Jewish is like the biggest trick ever

What makes you a jew? Being a jew.

But what MAKES you a jew? Being a jew.

But...

>It's so obviously fake.
Congrats, you've figured out the secret of every religion ever and the mystery of why so many Jews are atheists.

Also thanks for making me lose the game, dick.

The biggest trick the Jews ever pulled was on themselves.

#
It goes so much deeper

>The goyim hate us for being apart from them
>but what separates us
>being Jewish
>but what makes us Jewish
>being apart from them
>but what separates us?!?
>being Jewish
>but... but what makes us Jewish?
>saying we are jewish
>but what is being Jewish?
>being apart from them

My mind is blown. Judaism is the largest and longest running ponzi scheme ever constructed

>The frenchs have a state and there are frenchs in every country of the world
Not well over half of them.

If your mother is Jewish, or your mother's mother is Jewish, or anyone at all in your matrilineal heritage is Jewish, then you are Jewish by Jewish standards. That is all there is to it and it has nothing to do with whether you follow Jewish law or not,

The french didn't revive France for less than a 100 years ago