Does anyone else here think the Holocaust was stupid? Of course it was very tragic and depressing, but I also think it was beyond fucking stupid. Why did Germany devote so many vital resources during wartime to trying to wipe out the Jews? Surely defeating the USSR was more important. Even though I think wiping out the Jews was completely immoral and unjustified, surely it would've made more sense to worry about winning the war first, then rounding them all up. By the later years of the war, was it a case of "We know we're going to lose, might as well take the Jews down with us"?
How can a country known for being efficient and pragmatic to the point of anal-retentiveness have had its priorities so ass-backwards? >inb4 didn't happen
Read "Wages of Destruction" by Adam Tooze. Germany's racist policies were extremely helpful in both motivating the population into a war ultimately contrary to their interests (living standards under the Nazi economy were not good) and getting maximum utility out of occupied territories (don't have to feed occupied populations, can take whatever you want, and can use the Slavs/Jews as slave labor).
Jonathan Ortiz
>By the later years of the war, was it a case of "We know we're going to lose, might as well take the Jews down with us"?
Pretty much. Remember, people fight wars to secure some kind of policy goal; annex this disputed bit of territory, end that embargo, change the regime in such and such country. There's a lot of military tactics and operations in how to do that, but ultimately, the goals are political.
One of the main political goals of the Nazi regime was to wipe out Jewish influence, preferably through eradication of the Jews. When it became clear that the war was either lost or at least wasn't going to be won anytime soon, well, better do it now rather than possibly lose the chance to ever do it.
>How can a country known for being efficient and pragmatic to the point of anal-retentiveness have had its priorities so ass-backwards?
That's something of a meme. "Efficient and pragmatic" countries don't have bureaucracies with no fixed areas of responsibility except what department heads Hitler likes, or air forces with their own armored divisions, or two separate "High commands" of the army, or design tanks out of factories that use different manufacturing processes and thus do not have interchangeable parts within the same supposed model, or design giant penis guns that are too slow to move around and overkill against pretty much anything.
Connor Clark
The G*rmans needed someone to blame on all their problems. Plus wartime is the time to get it done while everyone else is busy.
Ryan Bailey
As you said, It's very difficult to understand it. Now more than ever, considering Kissger's "Realpolitik" is the dominant way of perceiving world affairs. The only thing that can be sensibly said about this is that states do not always behave rationally. Hitler's way was also not without it's detractors anyway.
Henry Long
I understand all that, and the slave labour thing makes perfect sense to me. But I still don't get why they'd even bother with death camps in the first place. It just seems so counter productive. On the other hand, using slave labour for war materiel will inevitably result in some degree of sabotage, which did happen in Nazi labour camps. Good points. And that's true, I completely forgot about the byzantine bureaucracy and cronyism of Nazi Germany. But Germans were and are stereotyped as being efficient, evidently the reality was much different.
Anthony Gutierrez
>barely any food >barely any clothing >barely any medical supplies >a few thousand tonnes of Zyklon B
How did those Germans survive losing all those vital resources to the prisoners
Jayden Wright
>Read "Wages of Destruction" by Adam Tooze +1
Owen Morris
>getting depressed over fictional events Did you also cry after reading Harry Potter you numale?
David Baker
Ideology is hell of a drug.
Altough I doubt it was so "stupid", since they had a shitton of slaves thanks to it.
Blake Bell
To ensure that post-war Germany would be free of what they saw as a negative influence. Remember groups such as communists and trade unions were also sent to the camps.
Franco did similar in taking strategically pointless areas so he could wipe out as much of the Left as he could. In an Authoritarian state the less political dissidents the better.
Hudson Nguyen
>Of course it was very tragic and depressing
Kevin Baker
Not an argument.
James Phillips
Holocaust did not require much resources and it was an overall gain in resources as it freed up food, allowed the Nazis to confiscate goods, and provided forced labor.
Jose Diaz
The fear was that the jews would start another communist uprising and actually win this time, and pull in Germany what happened in Russia.
So as Germany was losing, it was a "now or never" desperation move. Also food was short so that sure as shit helped the war effort, in a cold, pragmatic way.
Why gas over bullets though, or stretching it out over such a long period or bothering trying to cremate to hide it when it'd be obvious that millions of people vanished, I have no earthly idea.
Liam Williams
It's a lie both that it happened and that it was tragic
Sebastian White
that's funny because Germany is directly responsible for starting the communist revolution since they escorted Lenin back to Russia during the bolshevik revolution to intentionally destabilize the Russian government in WW1
Benjamin Gutierrez
No! NO! See, that was the ZOG that was controlling Kaiser Wilhelm's government and ultimately stabbed them in the back so they wouldn't win WW1 and be able to support the Judeo-Bolsheviks into expanding Soviet territory! You have to understand the slyness of the Jooz.
Michael Anderson
>Why gas over bullets though shit's efficient
>bothering trying to cremate to hide it when it'd be obvious that millions of people vanished Well, some retards fall for it even today.
Daniel Martinez
Your assumption is that the goal of the Hitler regime was to conquer Europe, etc. So you are baffled as to why he squandered so many men and such massive materiel attempting to commit genocide on the Jews.
Until you realize that the pope was pulling the strings of 2/3 of the Axis powers, and that the pope represents an institution dedicated to the annihilation of the Jewish peoples, you will constantly be baffled by history.
Tyler Walker
>No! NO! *pinches swastika*
Jack Gutierrez
Occupied Europe was short on food, killing a few million Jews increases the available amount of food per capita. You can also take their apartments and property and give it to your population, thus less resources need to be dedicated to construction and production of consumer goods. Those who were unable to work were killed immediately while the labor force of the rest could still be exploited. It makes sense economically.
Oliver Hernandez
To be fair, who actually saw them winning in Russia, let along last? Any betting man would say they'd provide a great distraction and fizzle out after a short time.
Still a retarded move to ever help communists, but shit got way beyond anyone's reasonable predictions.
Cameron Watson
Reminder that Himmler witnessed a mass execution and threw up
Christopher James
Because they would have been stabbed in the back and lost the war if they didn't
Aiden Gonzalez
They didn't. It's atrocity propaganda. There's no evidence of government conspiracy, gas chambers or 6 million. Jews were put in camps for the same reason the Americans put Japanese in camps, then about 300,000 died from typhus and starvation.
>then about 300,000 died from typhus and starvation.
And the other 5.7 millionish just vanished? By the way, how come people like British and French PoWs, who were often in the same camps, didn't starve en masse or die of "typhus"?
Christopher Cooper
I have to admit, I was trying to sarcastically imitate the stormtard "logic". I guess I wasn't clear about that. Probably a bad idea to try in this sort of environment especially in absence of things like intonation and body language.
Luke Stewart
This. The Ideology served the Nazi's goals in the beginning, but then the Ideology became the goal. At the tail end of ww2 they didn't care to stop the Holocaust temporarily and divert all their efforts to win the war, they ramped that shit up, losing them the war, because they were flying high on their Ideology.
Nolan Morris
>they ramped that shit up, losing them the war,
They had lost the war well before that.
Jacob Garcia
The Holocaust was perfectly rational when understood as anti-partisan operations. You have to understand that for Nazi Germans, Jews were automatically considered to be Soviet partisans.
And, frankly, they were right.
Owen Peterson
>Jews in Poland? SOVIET PARTISANS! >Jews in Estonia? SOVIET PARTISANS! >Jews in France? SOVIET PARTISANS! > Jews in Greece? SOVIET PARTISANS! >Jews in Norway? SOVIET PARTISANS! >Jews in the Netherlands? SOVIET PARTISANS! >Jews in Italy (but only after Italy's government distintigrates so you can get at them)? SOVIET PARTISANS!
Dylan Anderson
Holy shit, a Holocaust/Jew thread on his with actual discussion and barely any /pol/tards posting? It must be Christmas!
Carson Sanchez
source?!
Liam Scott
Nice strawman. I will hang you for less than being a fucking partisan.
Lucas Nguyen
>Surely defeating the USSR was more important. not so fast
Owen Fisher
resources being: man-power, logistical measures
Zachary Powell
How exactly is it a strawman? You stated, and I quote, that "jews were automatically considered to be Soviet partisans". Nonwithstanding the obvious falseness of such a statement
Clearly differentiating between Jews and Communists, if all Jews are Soviet partisans, then well, all Jews are soviet partisans.
Parker Edwards
>getting maximum utility out of occupied territories (don't have to feed occupied populations, can take whatever you want, and can use the Slavs/Jews as slave labor).
Albert Speer harshly criticized this. The output was terrible and specialized laborers were wasted
Jeremiah Hall
The units that shot the jews and the units that dealt with partisan activities were entirely different units.
Xavier Flores
Towards 1943-1944, orders were issued to slow down (or in some cases stop) the slaughter in labor camps and with those with specialized skills. (Holocaust deniers will often cite these documents as "proof" that Hitler was a good guy and tried to stop the killing of Jews)
