God created everything

>god created everything
>god created evil and misery
>god is all powerful
>god allows evil and misery to exist

Any theists can explain this? How can you believe in a god that allows evil?

God is evil

pic related, God

...

>why isnt this heaven already?

>god created evil

this is where you fucked up

>God created evil and misery
That's where you're wrong user. God didn't "create" misery, God IS good, so all misery and evil comes from separation from God. Hell, the most miserable place that exists, is total separation from God.

>in the beginning there was nothing
>god creates everything
>evil exists
>god created evil

And if god created something and gave it the capacity to do evil, then he created evil

What makes you believe evil is an entity? Also what is evil according to you?

If he allowed evil and misery to exist the whole redeeming mankind from sin plan wouldn't have been put into action.

See you next thread nublet.

You're the one saying it's an entity. Entities aren't the only things that have the privilege of existing. What does my definition of evil matter? Do you deny that it exists, regardless of whose definition you want to go by?

God's not good. Or, at least, he's not infinitely good. He favors tough love. Without evil, how could we appreciate good?

ITT: no one understands the concept of free will, which has been the fundamental explanation for evil in the two Abrahamic religions since they have existed.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

-Isaiah 45:7

Your scope of understanding is so narrow. If god created human beings to have free-will and in our free will we have the capacity to do evil, then God has directly had a hand in ensuring evil exists in the world.

Allowing evil to exist =/= creating evil.

Don't skirt around my point, I didn't say that. God created humans that do evil, he has to have created 'evil' to even give us the capacity to do it.

>and if God created something and gave it the capacity to do evil, then he created evil
Wrong. That's like saying God invented television since God created man and man invented television.

That's not even true and there's three Abrahamic religions.

Not necessarily. The ability to do evil comes from our free will, not necessarily because God has endowed us with the ability to do evil.

So if I have a child and he's a sociopath but I treat him well all his life and he still acts out sociopathic urges it's somehow my fault?

>he has to have created 'evil' to even give us the capacity to do it
I mean, God IS good, so he didn't so much create evil so much as he allows us to choose God, or not God.

That's because much like the concept of hot and cold, good and evil aren't separate concepts, but rather evil is simply the absence of good.

Christian - "God has a plan for all and knows everything we do before we even do it"

Therefore there is no free will...

Is knowing the future actually erasing free will though? If I nudge someone towards believing something, am I taking away their free will?

At any time, we have the capability to rebel. Knowing if we will or not beforehand doesn't really remove that option, since we're ultimately making the choice anyway.

Oh wow, the question of evil. Damn, everyone's stumped. How didn't anyone think to tackle this shit before???

>God created humans that do evil,
He didn't. He gave us free will to do good or to do otherwise (what we call evil). God is The Good (sort of like Plotinus' concept of "The One"), and our decisions bring us closer to or further from Him. An action that does the former is good, an action that does the latter is bad/evil.
(I'm not religious, I just made up this argument during my philosophy classes. I think there are better arguments against the Christian God.)

There's also iirc the concept of Hell which is bad not because you are tortured in it, but because it is a place without God.

It's called the Demiurge and yes it is evil.

If if we will rebel or not is already written, why is it necessary for us to actually do the action. Seems like a waste of time.

You did not bring my other pont up. He has a plan for everyone.

Therefore god is not letting us do what we want.

>So if I have a child and he's a sociopath but I treat him well all his life and he still acts out sociopathic urges it's somehow my fault?

It's not your fault because you're not omnipotent. If you were omnipotent, then yes it would be your fault, because you created him that way on purpose.

>That's like saying God invented television since God created man and man invented television.

If God is omnipotent, then God did "invent" television.

>Knowing if we will or not beforehand doesn't really remove that option, since we're ultimately making the choice anyway.

He doesn't just know the future, though, he created the universe such that that future must occur.

>If you were omnipotent, then yes it would be your fault,
That doesn't make sense.

>god created everything
>god created good and happiness
>god is all powerful
>god allows good and happiness to exist

Why would an evil omnipotent God allow good and happiness to exist?

>this thread

What's going on in this picture? Did he cut off the dragons ear? Why?

>god allows evil and misery to exist

what is evil according to you, could be good from a different perspective

the key assumption, and the fatal flaw of your argument, is that there is an objective definition of "evil" or "good"

God exists as the cosmic unity of all things. Evil is merely a quality of souls meaning that they lack goodness or closeness to God.

See the arguments put forward by Augustine and Irenaeus on the problem of evil. Augustine believed that God did not create evil. Everything created by God is good as he is the perfect being. It was only when Adam and Eve committed the original sin that they brought evil into the world, including death and disease. While God has to punish humanity for what we have done, as we are seminally present in Adam at the time of the sin, and are therefore sinful, he is also merciful as he sent his only son, Christ to our world to die for our sins.

Irenaeus believed in the first and second Adam. Though I might be mixing the phrasing up with schlieiermacher. Evil is necessary as our love for God must be tested. If a robot is programmed to love, is it really love? Our love for God must come from our choice to ignore the evils which ar present in this world.

There are plenty of other theologies on the topic but these two were the two big originals.

But they all fail because the definition of "choice" is arbitrary and they assume that it's impossible for somebody to be forced to commit evil.

the argument works within the frame of assuming the objective concepts of good and evil within a religion to show an inherent contradiction.

The idea is that humanity created evil itself, not God. God created a utopia and it was destroyed by humans. This brought natural evil into the world and the idea of evil was brought into the world. Humans only choose evil because they brought evil into the world by disobeying God,

>someone posts the bible verse from isaiah where god says he created evil

>christians ignore it and still say god doesn't create evil

This lol. I don't get these retarded discussions. If God is the creator of the universe, he is the creator of evil as well as good.

>Any theists can explain this? How can you believe in a god that allows evil?

By looking at the alternatives, obviously.

1. Create no universe. No evil.
2. Create automaton universe. No evil, but no love.
3. Create Pollyanna universe. No evil, but no love.
4. Create this free will moral agency universe. Evil, but also Love.

As God is Love, and God's highest ideal is Love, only this universe allows for Love to be the highest ideal; only this universe has the conditions under which God can express his love for us, and we for him.

We'll just point out that "ra" in the Hebrew in that context means "calamities". Being God in good weather and in hurricanes makes sense in context.

We're good at pointing out things that are true.

Evil is not a created thing. Evil is a twisted, warped, perverted or broken good thing.

With some help from satan, the father of evil.

The definition of choice is the result of the ability to choose. What's complicated about that?

I don't particularly care much about it, though I know the quote you're on about.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".

This right?
It is a big problem, but consider that not everyone follows the scripture completely, not everyone is a fundamentalist. I still think that it's a weird argument, I dislike the Christians trying to portray their God as perfect in every way and never doing any harm when there are stories like that in the bible, even if it was justified like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Well that's a criticism of the Augustinian argument. One could also say that God created Lucifer who was evil, and that he created hell, so he obviously intended for evil to exist because that's where evil resides.

>Evil is not a created thing. Evil is a twisted, warped, perverted or broken good thing.

This doesn't answer anything. If God is the source of everything, he is also the source of evil.

So you'd blame God for giving us free will? Maybe you want to rethink this.

Yeah. Calamities meaning god creates good and evil. Good and bad things are all supposed to happen at his will. There is a whole lot before the NT. Try reading it. God clearly says he creates evil, and there is an entire book of Job where evil happens at god's command as a test of faith.


The Bible is 100% clear that god also creates evil. Read your own holy book.

Again, "calamities" fits in that sentence, not "evil".

God does no evil, authors no evil, harbors no evil.

>One could also say that God created Lucifer who was evil

Not truthfully, no. God created the highest and best angel, and that highest and best angel fell from grace by staging a coup in heaven and turning himself into the devil.

Men and angels are the source of evil.

There was no evil prior to the creation of men and angels.

There will be no evil after men and the angels are sorted out for eternity.

Evil is a temporary problem.

It has been attempted to explain that it was because of humans. He had to create humans with free will so they had the free will to love him, see my post on the Irenaean theodicy. The argument is that humans had the free will to do evil and that God had no part in their decision, he instructed them to be good and they were not.

Again, I don't like the argument because of Christianity i general. It's sort of a flawed religion in that, while it has great morals, it is an abrahamic religion that many tried to apply to western culture, leading to discrepancies

No, calamities like hurricanes and tornadoes and floods and tsunamis, which are not evil.

But they are calamities.

>The Bible is 100% clear that god also creates evil. Read your own holy book.

It does not; evil is not a created thing; the Creation week had no evil thing created in it; God rested following the Creation week.

I've obviously read it at least once, which is obviously at least once more than you have.

The "discrepancies" are that it is not a means to rule the world, or save the world, but to redeem individuals from the world.

>Men and angels are the source of evil.

And God created men and angels with the capacity to do evil, e.g God is the actual source of the evil.

Blaming God for evil is the act of a fool.

God did no evil. God does you no evil.

Maybe you're getting too old to avoid all personal responsibility in your life.

I'm not blaming God for anything moron. I'm setting the record straight.

If there is a creator of the universe, he is the creator of evil, just as much as good.

Deal with it fagtron.

Eh, I mean, my issue is that there is a lack of consistency between what scripture is saying and what Christians throughout history have been trying ot push. Obviously it happens throughout a lot of religion and Christianity is by no means the only offender. I just think a Semitic religion doesn't suit Europeans and we can see this from Europeans trying to impose their ideas on a religion which was formed from Judaism by Jews who put similar narratives in the bible.

Yes. Clearly the book speaks of peaceness and light and contrasts this with weather and not evil. God flat out says he creates evil. There is a specific book where god commands evil to happen to Job to show he is the god of everything.

God does create evil and even lets it happen or does it himself. You may argue whether or not the evil is justified, whether it is evil at all if god does it, and you can even say it's tough love. But don't flat out lie and go against your own faith when the very book you say is the word of god says vehemently that god does create evil and even does evil acts.

As I said the nature of these evil acts can be justified and all that, but there is zero debate as to whether god creates evil. If you are Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, that much is very clear from your book. The Abrahamic god makes no apologies for it, see Job. Maybe you see it as justified for spiritual growth or to test faith and all that, but you cannot argue the words of the very god you claim to believe in. He says he creates evil. Your words mean nothing.

We can even see this in passages where he intentionally hardens the heart of the pharoah so he can have Moses perform miracles. And the world MUST become more evil if Revelations is to come to fruition. There is no doubt that evil is a part of what god does, and indeed, has planned. May be for a good purpose in your view, maybe even loving because it tests us and provides the contrast to know gods love after we fear him (which is the beginning of wisdom as per proverbs), but don't lie, you ignorant fool.

Grow up. Take responsibility for the evil YOU have done.

Keep it simple. Christians push Jesus is God, the Creator of the Universe, came down as one of us to redeem us from our plight and rose from the dead on the third day, as he said he would.

That's Christianity.

Yeah, that would be ideal but I feel like it's gone too far to stop after 2000 years. Too much bickering over what really means what, and we can see how this divides Christians of different cultures in the Great Schism.

fpbp

I'm not even so sure about this Jesus cat, seems really sketchy and tacked on by fanatics.

Another fool is heard from.

God did no evil to Job. God had a hedge of protection around Job and his family and his property that the devil could not penetrate.

For reasons beyond you, God chose to test Job in the fire, and seal his righteousness forever. God therefore removed the hedge, and limited the damage the devil could do.

Note that the devil could only do damage after God's restraining hand was lifted. As that hand stops the devil from physically tormenting and possessing YOU, maybe a thanks is in order.

Evil happens in God's permissive will, not God's express will.

God does no evil, condones no evil, and bears no evil.

The pharoah hardened his own heart 7 times, 7 being the number of completion/perfection. God gave him the power to stick to his convictions and be an evil ruler.

God gave you the power to rebel against him too, and stick to your evil convictions. Do you think you could rebel against God on your own? Do you think you could prevail against God?

No, if God is as you say he is, mankind has no hope.

The great falling away was predicted thousands of years ago. Experiencing it should strengthen your faith, not weaken it. All is going according to the plan God laid out through his prophets and His Son.

This world will end in fire, and soon. Do you not hear it groaning in pain?

He's around. He can see you right now. He can hear you right now. He'll be there if you want to meet him yourself.

I agree. First hand meeting, best meeting.

Decent wee thread going so far lads, let's keep it going

I'm a pagan not Christian, sorry senpai. I left Catholicism a long time ago.

Spooky ghost Jesus is creeping on me when I'm jacking off in the shower?

Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.


3 John 1:11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God.

You made a lateral move, friend, from pagan Catholic to honest pagan.

Strange that's the first thought you'd have. As though that would be what you would do if you were Jesus.

Yeah they are similar. The pagan elements in Catholicism were the only things keeping me going. Obviously it's difficult to be taken serious when saying that there is one set of Gods/God and there is nothing else, everyone else is wrong. I just chose to go with something that is more in keeping with my ethnicity and something that I prefer the message.

Okay, so you're not even being serious then. God expressly says he does evil because he is all powerful, god does evil, and apparently you ignore the passages that say god hardens the heart of pharoah and say that pharoah did it. The exact opposite of what the story says or means.

I see you have either never heard a word of the Bible beyond some cherrypicked quotes and ample asspull apologetics. Have you ever read anything from Biblical scholars and not just nice sounding ad hoc rationalizations?

As for the bullshit about me defeating god, no. Nor does it matter because whether or not god can beat me in a fight does not change the fact of what god says or did as per your own book.

>Jesus invisibly spies on all the rapes that occur daily and doesn't lift a finger
Wonderful magic California Surfer Dude Jesus doesn't seem so majestic when you take it to it's logical conclusion.

As an addendum:

>No, if God is as you say he is, mankind has no hope.

This is the real reason why you refuse to accept what the Bible says or what I say. Because you want to be moral and cannot imagine a god doing bad things despite your book saying it. Your own fear of being immoral is why you are arguing this point so pathetically rather than justifying it in the other ways I have said. It's just sad. As if god being any type of way or there being no god suddenly means man has no hope. Says who? Why does that idea mean man has no hope?

>Have you ever read anything from Biblical scholars and not just nice sounding ad hoc rationalizations?
Not that user, but you understand doing this is literally against the teachings of the bible? Yeah?

God allows evil to exist to strengthen out character.

See for yourself, those who have had bad things happen in their life and pulled through tend to be far wiser and happier than those who have never struggled in their life.

>god created evil and misery
God did not create evil, but he did create free will. Evil is what is opposed to the goodness of God or which works in contradiction to him. He never made evil, but allowed it to exist so that his creation could choose to love him, as opposed to being forced to love him.

God is often compared to a father, because like a good father God sometimes puts us into uncomfortable situations so that we can become wiser and happier in the long run. God allows suffering because he knows what is best for us, and he never serves us any more suffering than he knows we can handle. When you realize this, then you find truth in the phrase: "God is Good."

tl;dr - God allows suffering to exist to make us stronger, and he did not create evil but allows it to exist so that we may have free will.

Exodus 7:13 And Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 7:22 Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

Exodus 9:7 Then Pharaoh sent, and indeed, not even one of the livestock of the Israelites was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh became hard, and he did not let the people go.

Exodus 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.

7 times Pharoah hardened his heart. It was completely hardened.

This concept should not be this difficult for you to grasp.

Once the Pharoah's heart was hardened, God did what God said he would do.

Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Since you are not and will never be a ruler over men, this does not concern you.

And people like you have no idea where people like that are headed.

You wouldn't have the stomach for it.

and this analogy falls apart when you begin to realize that God created you, and has about as much intrest in your sexuality as a normal person does to birds mating.

If you honestly think Jesus is watching keenly when you jack off, then you should get over yourself you narcissistic bastard.

Because God would be evil, and who can withstand him?

This OP.

op here idk really wish i could help

I always thought it was a weird go-to for the godless; they have that entire ever expanding pictograph where Jesus ends up looking at the entire universe and says "stop masturbating".

Do these people not understand that God created sex? And created it to be joyful and pleasurable?

>If you honestly think Jesus is watching keenly when you jack off, then you should get over yourself you narcissistic bastard.

Woah woah It's not me saying it, chill. Take it up with the guy who believes in ghosts and satans.

Arbitrary as fuck.

They took out the whole "the lord hardened pharoah's heart" these days?


He does not even exist as you understand him. Even if god was evil, so what? That means you lie and pretend what the Bible says isn't what it says? Ignoring the truth does not make it go away. And I believe in a god. But my god does not require me to live in fear and live like an afraid animal like the Abrahamic god does.

>If God is omnipotent, then God did "invent" television.

That doesn't even logically follow.

>tfw you answer the OP but he just continues getting into arguments with other people who haven't answered the question as well as you, proving he's just a butthurt atheist who wants to argue with theists rather than come to any genuine understanding

how?

point me there user.
Not OP but genuinely curious to see an answer.

Has op really posted much in this thread, though?