>crime being anything more than what states define it to be
Bentley Thomas
The crime is the reasons we pay tax, not the tax itself.
Ian Scott
TAXATION IS THE MEANS VIA WHICH THE CITIZENS OF A STATE FINANCIALLY CONTRIBUTE TO THE STATE'S FINANCIAL POWER.
TAXATION CONSTITUTES THEFT ONLY WHEN IT IS UNFAIR, OR WHEN THE STATE IS UNJUST, OR CORRUPT, WHICH THEN WOULD BE ETHICOMORALLY IMPERATIVE FOR ANY NOBLE PERSON TO REFUSE FINANCIAL SUPPORT TOWARD IT.
IF YOU CONSIDER ANY FORM OF TAXATION TO BE THEFT, YET, STILL LIVE WITHIN, OR AROUND, CIVILIZATION, YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE.
Justin Collins
Taxation is evil, but it can,be used to fix greater evils if used at least somewhat properly.
Ayden Campbell
Quick op escape the State
Literally no one is chaining you here
Logan Hall
Taxation is literally the only real civic duty of any citizen, other than military service in times of need.
By living in the nation you tacitly consent to the maintenance and security of said nation, along with everybody else, to ensure that all can continue to reap the benefits of a collective society.
Ryder Watson
...
Cooper Miller
No one cares you dumb fucking nigger. Just kill yourself
Juan Morris
Yes liberals educate the plebs because liberals feel morality good about educating the plebs and once the plebs is educated by liberals most of the plebs pay lip serving to liberal ideas (even though most people do not mind break the liberal laws about taxes or driving). And of course, with liberals, a lack of commitment to liberal ideals stems form a a lack of exposition to liberals ideals in young age [liberals love to claim that any unpleasant situation stems for childhood] which stems from a lack of money dedicated to tell kids about liberal ideals, which appear to liberals as a jsutification for the liberal taxes and liberal management of their society for more than 200 years.
Josiah Cruz
Most of those are just rewording of the same thing and Roman education was notoriously shit. If you really wanted an education you got a Greek or you went to Greece.
Marcus Aurelius flat out said the best thing that ever happened to him was not getting a roman education.
Parker Edwards
literally false but not a surprise coming form a liberal. the people belonging to the states create passports that the recipient must pay for and and these people claim that they own the land they do not even inhabit.
Chase Flores
Taxes fund a greater power that only ensures the furthering of oppression.
What do Taxes pay? Services, Public Safety, Military and order. What happens if you dont pay taxes? Said services, public safety, and military power that you pay for, strips you of your freedoms.
Anons Riots and Mobs used to form when Taxes were being used unjustly. One could rise up and make a difference if their support was great enough. Wars were fought over Taxation and wrongful use of public fairs. Corruption is all around us. The only difference now is that we've doomed ourselves by paying too many taxes and forfeiting our freedoms as well as our privacy thus strengthening our oppressors that call themselves society.
Jack Miller
like this ?
Kevin Morales
STATISM DOES NOT NECESSARILY ENTAIL OPPRESSION, NOR IS OPPRESSION INHERENT TO STATISM.
Thomas Flores
Oppression through tax is alot nicer than Oppression through overt use of violence. I don't believe humans will ever get away from hierarchies and inequality. Using the state to regulate the worst abuses is worth giving up some personal freedoms and paying taxes
Jaxon Jackson
ADDENDUM: OPPRESSION CAN ALSO OCCUR UNDER, AND IS FACILITATED BY, ANARCHY.
Christian Hall
Statism would be Ideal if Statism were built for those who could not govern themselves.
Oppression in Statism occurs when the state uses its power against the people instead of for the people. Thus oppressing the freedom and lively rights of its citizens.
Brayden Myers
...
Tyler Gutierrez
This is simply what has been drilled in our minds from the day we were born.
We think we are giving up freedom for the greater good and paying ourselves forward, when really we are blind to see that our oppression is through violence and thus we must pay taxes to avoid said violence.
Extortion occurs when a party is obtaining something from another party (such as money,) through force or threats.
Paying taxes or giving money to the state is extortion, for fear of arrest which would lead to violence.
Paying taxes is extortion because we know the threat of not paying. Tax is an willful payment not decided by the people but by the state.
Tyler Cox
Taxes will never be spent 100% perfectly because we are human, nonetheless it is preferable to being Nayvadius's fuqqboi, a greater imperfection.
Dominic Flores
how can one be a hypocrite of taxation when we are forced to pay tax.
it is because tax is extortion.
Samuel Turner
TAXATION DOES NOT ENTAIL "GIVING UP FREEDOM".
YOU DO NOT COMPREHEND THE CONCEPTS BEHIND THE WORDS THAT YOU ARE USING, AND YOUR LOGIC IS SPURIOUS.
Brody Cox
We Elect a representatives of ourselves to govern the state to make the perfect decisions. If we are not satisfied with the decisions or feel as though our freedom is at stake, we have the right to dismantle or reelect officials to better represent the people in their interest.
Tyler Garcia
>my tax dollars are used to keep crime at bay >but I'm not allowed to vote as to what is defined as a crime Taxation is theft and there is no argument against such
Tyler Hernandez
you seriously need to read Hobbes. the freedoms of the state of nature are not worth the disorder that comes with it.
Bentley Cook
>how can one be a hypocrite of taxation... [?]
BY LIVING WITHIN A STATE, BUT DISLIKING CONTRIBUTING TO IT, OR REFUSING TO CONTRIBUTE TO IT, NOT FROM ETHICOMORAL, OR IDEOLOGICAL, MOTIVES AGAINST THE STATE, BUT FROM INTELLECTUALIZED EXPEDIENT MOTIVES FOR YOUR OWN SELFISHNESS.
>... when we are forced to pay tax.
YOU ARE NOT FORCED TO PAY TAXES; YOU ARE LEGALLY COMPELLED TO PAY TAXES.
>it is because tax is extortion.
NO, IT IS NOT.
Easton Turner
>but I'm not allowed to vote as to what is defined as a crime but you do?
Alexander Bennett
Taxation for the greater good is essentially not giving up freedom but when we are taxed to pay for a power that ultimately grows its strength to enforce higher taxes, that is when we have given up freedom.
>be taxed happily knowing greater good is happy >State uses taxes accordingly but refers to a need to grow in power to protect the greater good >state raises taxes >people opposes and rejects raised taxes >state uses increased power from higher taxes to enforce the people payment of higher taxes. >Continues to raise taxes claiming it is for the protection of greater good. >larger amounts of people oppose taxes in a rebellion to the state >state has gained more power than the people and fully oppresses rebellion and continues to raise tax by force of arrest through essential or necessary violence.
Leo Rogers
if you wanna avoid contact with the state all you have to do is go out into the wilderness or join an amish community. oh wait, if you join the amish community you'll still have some obligations to the community. almost like being part of a community naturally comes with certain duties whether that be payed in labor or money... speaking of money that money was printed by the Federal Reserve and is regulated by them to keep the economy stable
Brandon Wilson
>elects representatives who are for lower taxes and lower government expenses problem solved. nearly all republicans in congress have taken a pledge never to vote to raise taxes. if they do vote to do so they will have someone funded by Americans for Tax Reform run against them in the primaries. I think this is rather silly but it perfectly addresses your concerns.
Brayden Barnes
Yes, of course in the end everything is either backed up with violence or it isn't backed up at all. I was saying that our current system isn't as overt with its violence which is a good thing. Are their better systems, yeah. And we should work towards them, but taxes are necessary if you want anything more than straight violence getting people to do things. Without the ability to redistribute goods the only method of coercion left is violence.
Liam Clark
Have read Hobbes. While many of his points are valid, Many others disagree.
You need to read Locke.
Sebastian Turner
I have, and Locke too isn't against having a state. I don't agree with Hobbes on a lot of things but I find his state of nature thought experiment to be fairly valid if not somewhat exaggerated
Oliver Parker
>LEGALLY COMPELLED TO PAY TAXES. Which is then enforced by the state if we do not pay taxes. Force by legal dispute which could result in prison or force of violence. This is a Threat that we face if we do not adhere paying taxes.
Extortion is defined as the practice of obtaining something, especially MONEY, through force or THREATS.
Juan Morgan
you can easily leave the state. go join the uncontacted tribes in the amazon
Daniel Foster
Oh, look, it's the Mexican Nazi from /pol/.
Tyler Gutierrez
And you could easily continue to pay out thousands of hours of your life to the State for protection of the own nation's conflicts.
Thomas Evans
fair enough user. This thread was simply meant to point out the simple history behind extortion vs taxation. But obviously /pol/ has won this round.
Jonathan Carter
and I do because I also enjoy a well-regulated currency, less fear of being murdered, roads, public schools and cheap subsidized corn so I can get fat drinking carbonated corn syrup
Caleb Mitchell
>the freedoms of the state of nature are not worth the disorder that comes with it. nice opinion, too bad this is just an opinion that you try to pass as fact, as usual with rationalists...
Jace Butler
you never experienced a life not regulated by a people who created a state, so you cannot compare. The only thing you choose to do is fantasizing how dreadful life would be without people creating and destroying rules, that they justify by ''morality'' and material comfort and recruiting people to enforce their rules. The best part is that you have faith in the rigor of your analysis of the situation.
Ian Garcia
>Extortion is defined as the practice of obtaining something, especially MONEY, through force or THREATS.
Honestly, my dude, the worst that is going to happen if you refuse to pay your taxes, is they'll garnish your wages.
Angel Gutierrez
it's just as much as an opinion as your's that taxation reaches the level of oppression. at least I base my opinion on knowledge of what we gain from the state rather than on spooks like natural rights
Ethan Morales
You read the whole dang thing, didn't you?
Nathan Moore
neither can you truly compare. to an extent we have to make an educated guess. now tell me how well we would live if we had no currency, no Federal reserve to ease out the booms and busts of the market economy, if we can even sustain a market economy and don't go back to subsistence.
Dylan Gomez
Prison Sentence actually is worst case. Which could be refereed to as violence being the harsh treatments in a prison and the overall neglect of human rights. Further more if you resist fully, violence will be installed because the state has the power to enforce violence.
Carter Sanchez
if you live in the state and don't pay taxes you're a freeloader. if you like freedom more than comfort go live in the wilderness
Jaxson Nelson
not well enough to hopefully kill off a few of you free loaders.
Brayden Powell
How much did you pay in taxes this past year? I mean Federal, not Social Security or Medicare.
Tyler Hernandez
I guess my question is what are the alternatives and are they better or worse. I mean we can all say that something is evil, but without offering an alternative system, it is useless.
Evan Hill
I agree fully. But if you read up the board a bit, some anons have made the point that taxation is not simply a tool used to help the greater good but rather to increase the power of the government which is then used to undermine the people and thus oppress them.
In what case should the government have more power than the people do? We know well in History that when the state has more power than the people, the people are always the one to suffer.
Ryder Young
more than ur waifu's vag is worth L M A O
Parker Peterson
do you believe rent is extortion?
Dominic Nguyen
Well I think the source of income is just as important as the ammount. Taxes do make governments stronger but they can also tie them to certain actions because of the very need for taxes. Ei. Itso much more effective to peacefully skim off the top of a very rich pie than to consume a poor one.
Josiah Evans
that's rubbish if you're talking about a democracy. see in the U.S. we have an entire party dedicated to not raising taxes. The ideological legacy of Jeffersonian Republicanism here makes me doubtful that the state would ever even be able to be used for such a purpose in the U.S. I do not see a day when the fears of "big government" will die down to a level that big government is actually a real threat
Jaxson Flores
refer tono such place exists really. that would be utopia like.
The only real solution would be revolution but this is really the only solution humanity can come up with. Since the idea of overturning government's power is relativity new. It would not be ideal since revolutions can result in a lot of violence (personally I'm ok with this) but many value life even though life is expanding at an enormous rate and we as a race are starting to maximize our room for comfort.
Realistically. There are no new forms of government that could have foreseen a world population extending into 8 billion people, and of course this is our problem today.
"which way is the right way."
Cooper Harris
Good question!
Rent is similar to many other fees but because you have the ability to choose other forms of rent that are cheaper you have more freedom than you would with taxation. Also Rent benefits a smaller group of people as well as yourself. where Tax may fund a road that is a thousands away from you, that youll never use. Rent is for your own living condition.
Whether that rent is fair or not can be negotiated or you can choose to rent somewhere or something else.
Christian Ramirez
>you can chose to rent somewhere else but you can't chose to live in another country >giving your money to a capitalist leech is better for you than funding public spending
Kayden Thompson
>capitalist leech
Ryder Roberts
How is someone living from property rents without working not objectively a leech?
Ian Garcia
Good answer! However, you seem to be forgetting that it is perfectly possible for someone to revoke their citizenship and emigrate to another country, and with how big the world is, I guarantee there are no less choices than you would have for rent. Also, you mention that rent benefits others as well as yourself, but how is this different from taxation? My rent funding the hot water usage of my neighbors is in fact no benefit to me at all, and this argument further breaks down when you realize that most federal taxes go to "benefits" for everyone in the nation, like welfare spending and the military, while taxes paid to state and local governments in fact provide the same level of direct benefits as you claim rent does!
Jonathan Morgan
>BAWWWWWW I CANT INTO SOCIAL CONTRACTS >I WANT TO BE FREE LIKE SOMALIS IN THE 2000s Neck yourself Ron
Jack Butler
>All money comes from the state >Still extorts it from the people
an uncle of mine owns several houses and makes his living off of rent. he doesn't sit on his ass all day taking in the money, he pays for upkeep of the houses, either doing repairs himself or calling for a plumber, electrician, etc. plus he did pay for those houses. renting itself is a service, as having to buy the rights to a piece of land every time you move is inconvenient for people that have jobs that require them to move frequently.
>Taxation is, was, and always will be legal governmental theft by way of extortion via threats of violence and imprisonment.
>The purpose of taxation is creating slaves to the State in order to more easily manipulate the populace.
Busy night, OP?
Angel Lopez
>edit was made from a mobile device god damn phone posters
Xavier Clark
Revolutions are only a solution to the problem of creeping governmental control if they are frequent. I think it is possible to incentive smaller governements, but to me it requires another energy break through like effective fusion.
Colton White
Completely irrelevant. It's kind of hilarious that the acting of paying for upkeep with the money he makes from renting somehow make him any less of a leech in your eyes. And anyone that doesn't own property and doesn't want to live on the streets is forced to rent, it's not a "convenience service", how sheltered are you?
Jose Johnson
...
Chase Walker
it is though. some people do rent because they cannot afford to buy, but what I said about convenience is true. I've had neighbors who rent houses because the primary wage earner worked in construction so a 20 year mortgage was out of the question. Also, do you think that these people that cannot afford to buy a home or don't have the credit to get a mortgage will magically be able to do so if we banned people from renting homes or owning property that they lived in or that was part of a business?
Jayden Rodriguez
American "libertarians" are mentally children.
Anthony Rogers
also, another case where convenience applies: college students.
Jayden Diaz
>gib gib gib not an argument
Adam Russell
*that they didn't live in or wasn't part of a business
Nicholas Long
>Also, do you think that these people that cannot afford to buy a home or don't have the credit to get a mortgage will magically be able to do so if we banned people from renting homes or owning property that they lived in or that was part of a business? I never said anything of the sort. I'm just saying people that live off rents are objectively leeches, as they consume without producing anything. What to do about it is another question. And, as usual, you faggots cry about state oppression in ambiguous cases, while being perfectly okay with private oppression.
Isaiah Cruz
I'm not the ancap poster. also I already showed how in my uncle's case anyways he doesn't simply sit on his ass to make money. renters don't have to concern themselves with paying for a leaky roof, bad plumbing, etc
Justin Price
Oh wow, he takes the rent paid to him and pays a portion to a contractor. So much work.
Brayden Miller
as I said he does some of the work himself. He didn't inherit these houses. he's from a blue collar background and only calls a contractor if it's outside of his skill.
Aaron Peterson
To what degree do you think the profit of your uncle comes simply from his ownership and to what degree from his service (aka taking money and giving money to someone else to fix shit)? If your uncle gave his property to a real estate manager he would still make a profit, so the first factor is non null. It's irrelevant if he is also productive by offering a service, which in itself isn't leeching, you're conflating his role as owner and as voluntary manager. It's probably delusional to think most of his profit comes from his "service", but I'm not really interested in discussing about your uncle, it's pretty pointless.
Jace Phillips
I'm not saying that he makes money because he fixes shit. I mean as far as I know this isn't some extra fee that people pay for (I'm not too close to him nor do I know much about his business) so it definitely isn't something that makes him a profit other than perhaps being a better owner than the competition if they don't offer similar services. I'm simply countering the claim that all people who make money renting property are leaches that sit on their asses all day.
Jack Sanchez
Well, he does make money by fixing shit himself if it means not paying someone else. In any case, you seem to be interpreting "leech" as lazy, which misses the point.
Anthony Lopez
>being a better owner than the competition if they don't offer similar services. They're legally obligated to keep things fixed.
Landon Martinez
I understand what you mean saying that it's unproductive, my point was that renting isn't simply oppression and has a purpose in serving the market of those unable to afford a home or get a mortgage and those who don't live in one place for too long and that other owners, even if they don't do it themselves, probably offer similar services to their renters.
Gavin Butler
I figured that was probably the case but I'm not an expert on this so I just put it as a hypothetical
Zachary Walker
>I am obliged to my full income
You clearly don’t have a legal right to your pre-tax income, as you are legally obliged to pay tax on it. This is a simple analytic truth that follows from the definition of taxation. People who don’t take pay their taxes go (or at least legally ought to go) to jail. What you are entitled to is your post-tax income. This is just applying the definitions of the words and the law.
Carson Hill
taxation is literally how civilization as we know it works.
Jason Martin
>Taxation isn't a crime? alright, let's just put the brakes on this first sentence.
what is a "crime", and who defines crime? who attempts to resolve the situation when a crime is committed? where do they get the resources to do so?
literally the first four words you utter are severely self-contradictory. your brain functions like a child's.
Carson King
he swallowed cyanide though
Christopher Ward
For once on this board I've actually seen you be right. Well done.
Anthony Powell
If there is no taxation than this is pure economic anarchy and the state is distroyed, this would be fucking chaos
Aiden Parker
>to make the perfect decisions Perfection is impossible to achieve in the real world and we will never agree 100% with the potential candidates. I'm not sure what you mean by perfect.
We have to make some sort of reasonable trade-off. The problem with utopian ideologies that think they have everything figured out in the abstract is they ignore the outliers, sometimes these outliers aren't even small.
Jason Sanchez
Fucking retard anarchists, are you able to just think or use intellectual capacities?
Ayden Perez
>yet another load of "if you don't like what modern society/technology is like stop being a hypocrite and go live in the wilderness" arguments despite the fact we are raised from birth in said society, thus only being adapted to it, and going in the wilderness would most likely constitute suicide, because our stupid modern society not only forces us to live in social alienation and modern sophistications but also mold us into people corrupted by modern sophisticacies yes yes very compelling argument, but guess what, hipocrisy has nothing to do with the validity of the statement itself
Hunter Taylor
Taxes are where we get most of our basic research science funding. It's also where we get most of our non-take-a-pill-once-a-day-for-life pharmaceutical research.
Evan Edwards
and an army
Matthew Martinez
you stop paying taxes but also stop using any and all benefits derived from taxes deal?