Can someone says me why the Quran is supposed to be the "most perfect" book ever written?

There are also grammatical mistakes in the Qur'an.

And the history of the compilation of the Qur'an during the time of the caliph Uthman casts doubt on its authenticity.

>Every two lines:
>>Mohamed
>>Mohammed the most beneficent
>>Mohammed the prophet
Muhammad is only mentioned 5 times in the entire book, so I doubt you read it at all if you think it is "every two lines" or so.

The Koran also predates Mohammed.

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3216627/Koran-Birmingham-thought-oldest-world-predate-Prophet-Muhammad-scholars-say.html

Thats not necessaey true. Wjile the carbon dating method is accurate it could be that they just tested the paper it was written on. Paper was really rare back then so mist of the time people simply reused already written on paper.

I doubt you will find muslims on Veeky Forums. I've never encountered one

So they cleared the ink clean off? How did they do that? Or did empty paper that is so rare just sit there unused for a very long time?

lmao @ yer lyfe Abdul bin al Aziz

This language looks like someone is just drawing a bunch of noses on the page

How the fuck could you think that lmao?

Learn English first

Did you read it in Arabic. If not, shut the fuck up kafir

It wasn't unheard of. A lot of Roman books are currently being rediscovered because of reused paper. The process for getting rid of the old text wasn't perfect and the impressions can be read, which allows you to reconstruct the original, order text on the paper that is under the new text.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palimpsest

What they should have done is date the ink rather than the pages, though that may not have been possible depending on the type of ink.

I've never read it in either language, but if you read it in English it's irrelevant. Most Muslims strongly maintain translations aren't acceptable versions.

I can relate, I got quite far when I tried, probably 2/3 of the way through.

It's hard as fuck to get through even if you can cope with the monotonous repetitions. The chapters are in a really fucked up unchronological order but voluntarily kept as such because apparently it's the precise order in which he got his revelations; then you have chapters not even related to his life or what's going on around him, shit about fire djinns and shit; weird as chapters names like "the cow", or the "table with food".
I do plan to finish it someday just for the sake of having read it, but honestly it is overrated as fuck.

Oh and yeah, any muslims who tell christians the bible and the quran is completely completely compatible is either a liar or a fucking idiot. Apparently jesus doesn't die in Islam. No, instead he lifted towards heaven by Allah during the crucifixion BUT MADE IT APPEAR TO ALL PRESENT AS HE DID DIE ON THE CROSS ANYWAY. So not only Jesus did not actually die for your sins, but God/Allah trolled you hard and made you all think so... for literally 600 years without correcting you once about it.

Christfags BTFO

>The chapters are in a really fucked up unchronological order but voluntarily kept as such because apparently it's the precise order in which he got his revelations
No, they're just arranged by length. It has nothing to do with the chronology of the content or the chronology of the revelation. It's why Mohammed's attitude seems to change so often, because things written in his earlier peaceful phase and later more militant phase aren't separated by a nice time gradient, they just get arranged by something completely external to the content.

Really? I thought it had to do with the meccan/medinan order of the revelations. Oh well, the more you know.

Then if there isn't some sort of religious connotation, why not simply put them in chronological order. Arranged chapters by numbers of ayat (that's what you call them, right?) seems really superfluous now that it's been put to paper and doesn't really on oral tradition like it did in the first 50years of "Islam" before being written down.

Or is it just braindead custom/tradition at this point?

King James Bible

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

King James Bible

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

The Quran is intended to be understood as the final, unchanging and unchangeable word of God. Even translations don't really count, as seen in posts like and elsewhere. To change the order to something more logical after the fact would be considered a huge act of blasphemy.

>The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree
Sounds like a pretty clear admittance that jesus got btfo on the cross

>And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
That's the ascension AFTER he was resurrected, gave the apostles the holy spirit and at the end of the 40 days of his return. Only then does he ascend. I haven't read the NT in a while but even I remember that.

Meanwhile this is what muslims actually believe
>That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise

this

Yeah yeah I've heard that unless you've read it in arabic then it's almost as if you never really read it. No comment tbqh

But you still haven't really answered my question. If the chapters were clearly arranged in order by terms of length as you said, then that was done by men, not by God. Therefore there is nothing holy about a human arrangement. Why not try to make it easier to read through and understand? And it's not like one will be able to make much sense of it anyway without having some sense about mohammad's life (which the quran doesn't really explain or illustrate well at all).

So by the purely orthodox muslim creed, you need to
>learn ancient arabic
>learn the life of mohammad to make sense of the quran's timing and references
>and obviously read the quran
sounds like a LOT of effort if you casually want to learn about something, particularly if you have no interest in committing to the faith apart from academic interest.

In Nahj al-Balagha: He (as) said: You should follow your Prophet, the pure, the chaste of all the people of the world he was the least sated and the most empty of stomach He left this world hungry but entered upon the next world perfect.

More like,

>Allah is mighty, wise.
and
>Be thou not of the polytheists.

Really, the only bit of information I took away from the book is a snippet on Islamic divorce law, and the fact that King Solomon was a huge perv.

>Therefore there is nothing holy about a human arrangement.
Sure, but then you could apply that same logic to the actual written words, as those were done by men while God dictated to Mohammed by way of Gabriel. But they're still holy enough that believers (and non believers) are expected to treat the text itself with extreme reverence, despite just being ink on paper. You could compare this to the perspective Judaism has on paper containing words of the Torah, I guess.

The point is, "The Quran" is a thing that exists and is synonymous with God's word. Changing it would be blasphemous, even though as you said it doesn't make a ton of sense.

> And it's not like one will be able to make much sense of it anyway without having some sense about mohammad's life (which the quran doesn't really explain or illustrate well at all).
That you're supposed to get through the Hadith and the various schools of jurisprudence, which are a whole other level of complicated mess.

>But they're still holy enough that believers (and non believers) are expected to treat the text itself with extreme reverence, despite just being ink on paper
So tradition it is then, as I said.

>That you're supposed to get through the Hadith and the various schools of jurisprudence, which are a whole other level of complicated mess
So not only you need to learn ancient arabic, learn about the historical mohammad, read the quran, and also read the entire fucking sunnah? Sounds like you'll be brainwashed by the end of it, or you already bought into the meme long before you began the journey of learning about Islam. Not a very convincing way to go about things if the quran really is supposed to the perfect word of god.

Thanks for the honest answers though, appreciate it.

You got it the other way around, moron.

I'm pretty sure there's a verse that tells Muslims to ignore people who make fun of the Quran

Allah really thought of everything, no wonder Muslims are quite unchanging

it's much closer to Judaism, eg. all that concept of halal is a copy/paste from Jewish kosher, etc

>I've heard that unless you've read it in arabic then it's almost as if you never really read it.
Any coherent text written in one language may be translated into a coherent text in another language, you may lose some aspects here or there, but that's all.

I don't think it's that easy. There are many concepts in different languages that simply do not translate that well into other languages. Just look at how translations of the bible deal with Jewish concepts cleanliness, purity, and metaphysical understanding.

Arguably the differences could be intentional (i.e. the Christian bible as an "evolved" understanding of the Old Testament and sewed together into the New Testament) but you still have philosophical and religious concepts that, if not explained, will be misinterpreted or ignored.

>I'm pretty sure there's a verse that tells Muslims to ignore people who make fun of the Quran
Faithfags never read their own shit so I wouldn't be surprised. Still curious about that verse though so sauce would be welcome.

That's the rational attitude yes, but they unironically believe that god spoke mohammad in arabic therefore by reading the arabic version then you truly can capture the essence of his revelations in a way that translations cannot make them justice. And then of course you have the fucking quran bashing autists who take it to the extreme. Probably a desperate attempt to feel relevant when in reality the shift of power in the "islamic civilisation" is towards south asia with indonesia and the likes, countries which are developed and somewhat try to keep up with the rest of the world.

Meanwhile in MENA
>MUH OIL
>MUH ARABIC
>MUH JIHAD

Show me one (1) high quality greentext post.

>Dr Arrow, I'm green text

Of course its perfect. Look at how many people find peace through it and the eternal butthurt it causes. It will continue to do so until the end of time, unchanged, unchallenged. Keep worshiping your inferior scripture, stripped of all that is inconvenience to you

Ethos: Mevlevi Sufi, have read 2 broad tafseers

Firstly, I agree with every green text that you hath posted. They are all true, yet each one has a purpose. Something of importance to point out, nobody will truly understand the Quran except for its author. It's like giving Darwin's 'Origin of Species' to a bunch of monkeys. It's their book, but they don't understand it.

The apart structure of the Quran with its vague sentences is to give people an open choice which is ethically correct to them. And the simplest stories have so much behind them that can still be interpreted in today's society.

However the most amazing factor are indeed the Islamic scholars. These scholars are not to be underestimated, for their knowledge is beyond anything this world has seen. The more advanced a scholar was in Islam, the 'weirder' they became.

Al Hallaj memorised the Quran at the age of 12 and later became spiritually one of the strongest and wisest. He ended being decapitated for his Diogenes like attitude.

To conclude, only one can fully comprehend the Quran. Closest thing you could do is read it a Tafseers in Arabic.

Hi
Can any moslem explain to me if there is a cultural implication in Islam or amongst moslems that non-moslem people are worth less? I hear moslems speak of the importance of helping other moslems, but omitting non-moslems. Do they discriminate based on religious background? I showed a moslem an article about Christians being persecuted in the Middle East. He responded by saying he didn't care and that moslems were having it worse. To me it seems morally banal that you ought to help people in need just as much, no matter their religion.

Actually, I as a Muslim deeply respect non Muslims. I will tell you exactly why, but first I must ask you this question. "Why are Muslims born Muslims? Isn't it unfair for the non Muslims?"

> "Why are Muslims born Muslims? Isn't it unfair for the non Muslims?"
What? Muslims are born muslims because their parents happen to be belong to that faith. Some for most other people of other faiths Unfair? What do you mean?

>born muslim
Religious denominations aren't hereditary, fucktard. You're as bad as the altcucks who can't dissociate arab & muslim. Your faith is not your race, you become muslim by taking the shahadah, not by being "born". Stop spouting fake memes.

>Actually, I as a Muslim deeply respect non Muslims
You are a really shitty Muslim then

>let me tell you the proper way muslim behave
Stop trying to invent the villain here, bob. You're the vllain

>the most forgiving

HAHAHAHA

Because there is an actual way of reading the Qu'uran. Each verse was revealed during a specific time and context. Simply look up the multiple "tasfeer" (or explanation) of the Qu'ran - and you'll start understanding what the texts are referencing.

The Qu'uran doesn't read like a regular novel. Don't make that mistake.

t. actual Muslim

Seeing the amount of tards on this thread and no answers at all, as a Muslim I will answer your question.
The problem that faces every non muslim trying to read the quran is that they go get a translated copy of the Quran and start reading. Thats plain wrong. Before, you should understand what is this book. This book was revealed in 23 years upon Muhammad. Every verse was revealed for a specific reason and time, you see, context is everything. So before you read any surrah make sure you understand why it was revealed. As for the arrangment of verses they do have their role. Its not complicated but just needs a bit of research, muslims are usually raised on a fair amount of this knowledge.
Example below

> TMW a divine inter-dimensional soldier of heaven is literally scared of a puppy

Just like how people say the Bible is the most perfect book ever written: it's their religious book.

Example : surah duha 93
It was revealed in mecca when the revelations upon Muhammad stopped suddenly, he got really sad and distressed , polythiests of mecca started to provoke him, laugh and started to say that your God left you and forsaken you, this lasted a long time, finally the first words of the surah revealed:
1. “By the Glorious Morning Light,"
2. “And by the Night when it is still,
3. “Your Lord has neither forsaken you nor has He become displeased.”
4. “And surely the hereafter will be better for you than the present (life).”
5. “And soon your lord will grant you, and you shall be well-pleased.”
Glorious morning light is when people start going to work(metaphor for the start of revelation,when prophecy started). The still night a metaphor for the stop of revelation. In other words God tells Muhammad not to worry this quite normal, God will give you and to be pleasent.
Then continues:
6. “Did He not find you an orphan and sheltered (you)?"
7. “And He found you wandering and guided (you).”
8. “And He found you in need and made you free of need.”
9. “Therefore treat not the orphans with harshness,"
10. “And for the one who asks, repulse not,"
11. “And as for the Bounties of your Lord, do proclaim (it).”

He's right, you know. Infidels are the worst of creatures (Quran 98:6) and the vilest of animals (Quran 8:55). Indeed, they are worse than cattle (Quran 7:179). They are perverse (Quran 2:99), stupid (Quran 2:171) and deceitful (Quran 3:73). We should not forget that it is permissible to either kill or enslave non-Muslims if they do not convert to Islam or, if they are the People of the Book, pay jizya to a legitimate representative of a group of Muslims. May Allah subject them to eternal torture in the hereafter.

t. Muslim

>Religious denominations aren't hereditary

In Islam and Judaism, they are

All other books either agree with the Quran, in which case they are superfluous, or they disagree with the Quran, in which case they are blasphemous. It's as simple as that.

What about Surahs 9:29, 4:24, and 4:34?

Judaism is pretty much the exception, and even then it's mostly still a retarded belief not anchored in reality, there is no "faith" gene that is actually passed down. You simply cram religious rites upon an unaware child and brainwash them enough that by the time they develop reason, you're hoping they will identify as you wish they do. But I will concede that at least in judaism there is a doctrine about cultural matrilineality (even though the child will need to go through bat miite, bat mivzah, etc in order to become a "proper" jew).

I don't think that's the same case in islam. The child might be raised culturally muslim, but until he/she takes the shahada then he still isn't a true muslim.

I tried to do some looking into it and the closest thing I get to your point is a hadith stating "Thus, every child is born with a natural belief in Allah". Which is still not being born muslim, it's just implying that children are naturally predisposed to becoming muslim.

user you can say the same shit about Homer. The intention was that this was to be recited out loud.

Word to the wise:
Never repeat this in a Muslim country. Top tier material to get BTFO by religious police.

For a divinely authored book, it has almost no literary merit. Is it really the case that 'you gotta read it in arabic to get its beauty'?

The Old Testament, New Testament, Confucious' Analects, Plato's works, and other ancient lit is markedly better in translation than any passage in the Koran. I've seen Roman sex graffiti with more beauty than the Koran.

>One of the most praised literary Arabic books, if not the most praised simply due to it's literary merit has "no literary merit"

At least put in the effort of looking stuff up, and I'm not talking about some anti-theist.wiki.com - Look up legitimate theological work on why the Quran is considered top tier in Arabic literature.

The smallest chapter in the Quran (3-4 verses) contains dozens, if not more literary elements and nuances. Just look up tafseers

>The smallest chapter in the Quran (3-4 verses) contains dozens, if not more literary elements and nuances
While there is some of that because of the structure of classical arabic, a lot of those lists are made from people really reaching or redefining what a literary device is. It's the equivalent of the "scientific miracle" stuff but for poetry instead of science.

Arabic =English

You forgetting some like

>Arbitrary order based on descending chapter length of all things
>Missing portions from followers being kill, Muhammad forgetting them, and passages being eaten by animals
>Uthman BURNING ALL THE ORIGINAL KORANS except ""his edition""
>Verses came from Satan according to Muhammad himself
>Tone changes depending on Muhammad's life circumstances though Muhammad claims the koran predates him revealing it (written in heaven)

9:29
See battle of tabuk
4:24
See slavery before and after islam.
It actually comes as a restriction compared to pre islamic arabia.
4:34
This is connected to inheritance rules,
Women had no inheritance, Islam gave them half of that of a man. So this verse gave the man the responsibility to pay for the house and family, he is obligated to pay for everything including his parents and sisters if in need. However the wife is not obligated to pay a penny and her inheritance is only for her even if she is rich and her husband is poor. About the hitting part I see you skipped a whole 3 parts before. You see in pre islamic arabia they used to beat the shit out of their wives. Thats prohibited in islam instead it encouraged talking with them, leaving bed as longvas it takes and if then you are allowed in severe conditions to polite them with siwak(lean piece of wood used for cleaning teeth)

Simply no. Because it is not only the claims of muslims but also arab non muslim litrature scholars. Also in 7th century when it was revealed it was the reason many arab people to believe, they were the best poets and writers in the golden age of arab poetry(jahili poetry).
Even the harshest enemies of islam at the time (died as non muslims) said they didnt see better than it.

>O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.(9:73)

>Those who criticise the contributors among the believers concerning [their] charities and [criticise] the ones who find nothing [to spend] except their effort, so they ridicule them - Allah will ridicule them, and they will have a painful punishment.(9:79)

>Ask forgiveness for them, [O Muhammad], or do not ask forgiveness for them. If you should ask forgiveness for them seventy times - never will Allah forgive them. That is because they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.(9:80)

>And let not their wealth and their children impress you. Allah only intends to punish them through them in this world and that their souls should depart [at death] while they are disbelievers. (9:85)

Yes, like I said, the structure of classical Arabic does allow for certain literary conventions and flourishes not necessarily translatable to other languages. However, the number is inflated to "miraculous" by overzealous analyzers reaching for it.

>Even the harshest enemies of islam at the time (died as non muslims) said they didnt see better than it.
What non-muslim source reports this?

The fact that most of arab peninsula became muslim, you wouldnt find non muslim sources. What you would find is a lot of chains of narrations and hestorical contexts that matches with the fact. Also you would find modern non muslims talking about it as I said. Also the first to indicate the miraculous aspect is Al Jahiz, a muslim Mu'tazilla(doesnt believe in revelation). There is no doubt that the linguistic aspect is supreme in the case of the Quran, it doesnt take research to find that out. All you need is a fair amount of knowledge of classical arabic and grammar(high scool grade stuff) and then you just read (it will strike you). Thats my own experience anyway, I wasnt infleuenced by anything. How do we know that the Quran is special is because you compare with other kinds of litrature.