How would the economic situation have progressed?
Would the WW1 victors have dropped the reparations and the demands for Germany to consider itself guilty at some point?
Could Germany have been re-integrated into the European system in a peaceful way?
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Doubtful. Politically speaking, the people had an anger that the Nazis utilised to get into power. They wouldn't have been happy to adhere to what they viewed as extortion. There needed to be conflict as a means of ridding Germany of that anger.
If the victors had dropped some of the demands, Germany would still be influenced by nationalist, communist and populist ideals. It's probable that the victors own people would be pissed, given the death toll for a small reward.
Germany's always been the black sheep, I'd say, on the basis that it's a newer creation and that the main powers had always wanted to keep it in check. Reintegration would have been hard.
Yes, the Nazi ascent was anything but inevitable. One or two things going differently would have likely meant the national socialist movement would have stalled and quietly exited the political scene. Fascist movements depend on momentum. They live on sound and fury. If voters see that their bravado is hollow and their promises empty the movement dies.
Even something as simple as Hindenburg not appointing Hitler chancellor and continuing to run the government through presidential decree would have probably been enough to stop the nazi movement in its tracks. They had already lost seats in the last election, and there's little reason to believe they would have somehow surged forward again if conservative elements in Germany had made it clear they would not work with the plucky upstate nazi party. However, conservative elements did decide to accommodate the Nazis and Hitler rewarded them for it by abolishing elections.
The victors were dropping the demands, at least the British were, which was why Hitler was able to openly rearm. Liberals in Britain were making the argument: "of course they are acting aggressive and rearming, look at how you are treating them like the bad guy." Most attempts at enforcement of the treaty of Versailles were seen as vindictive war mongering and there wasn't British political will to do it.
Even before Hitler though the Weimar government had been covertly rearming from as early as 1920 under Hans von Seeckt. Similarly the Luftwaffe was created by the Weimar government in defiance of the treaty limits. They just had a massive "civilian" pilot training program instead.
Hitler did upset the apple cart I think, had he not come to power Germany would have probably given it another couple of decades before round 2, at least in my opinion.
Probably a split between traditionalist and communists like Spain, France, ect.
Communists would have come to power, as they were second largest and were paramilitary like the nazis
Also Germany was far from crippled after Versailles
Communists would probably have seized the government. They were a strong political force in Germany at the time.
inb4 Hitler shitposter
...
The premise of your question is already wrong.
This picture is clearly from 1923, there wasn't a hyperinflation in Germany when the Nazis came to power. They also weren't paying any reparations since 1930 (read about Hoover's memorandum). And lastly, Germany was already integrated into the European system. They joined League of Nations in 1926 and were generally considered reliable partners by the Western powers.
the jews would have taken over
edge
Reparations had been dropped long before the Nazis came to power.
German economy had also began to thrive before the Nazis.
Germany would have had a golden age in the 1940'sand 50's, then possibly lead counterattack against Soviet aggression and form a pan-European defence union of some sort, which would inevitably morph into a European Union.
Bolsheviks would've seized power and instead of the Third Reich we would'd had Democratic Peoples Republic of Germany between soviets and the west.
No that picture has always been used in the context of the Great Depression, as I'm pretty sure those are Reich marks not marks
Second/strong political force in no way equals a communist victory, as the communists
1)were at their absolute peak in the early 1930s off of massive numbers of unemployed workers
2)There were no other factions in society other than the workers and the unemployed who were for the communists
3)The military was fanatically opposed, and could count on alliances with the vast numbers of right wing freikorps.
4)Vote transferability between the communists and the nazis was very low. Workers stayed loyal to the communists, they didn't get seduced to the nazis.
Communists could neither hope to win elections, and if they did the military and the right wing freikorps would massacre them like in the Sparticist uprisings.
It is impossible for it to be associated with the great depression, as the great depression was a deflationary time in Germany pre-Hitler. Fear over inflation was an important reason for why they didn't devalue their currency.
Wikipedia has an article on the reichsmark which states that there was hyper-inflation in the great depression, but that's wrong, there's no way around it. I'm actually rather surprised, it is very rare for wikipedia to be straight up wrong in a completely factually incorrect fashion. Look at the image above, which shows the exchange rates.
OP here... the picture might be a bit misleading. I didn't really put any thought into picking it, to be honest, since it would have taken a while for me to pick something truly appropriate to the subject matter I wanted to discuss.
>Could Germany have been re-integrated into the European system in a peaceful way?
no such thing as a peaceful way as long as stalinist USSR exists
listen to this
very interesting
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>all these retards anti-semitic fanfictions
>history or humanity
enjoy your bans
Regarding reparations: it's a bit hard for me to figure out whether the demand for reparations was ever officially shelved by the WW1 victors. It seems that the 1932 Lausanne Conference ended in an informal agreement to stop seeking reparations from Germany, but that this was never made fully official. Then, the next year, the Nazis came to power.
Does anyone have a clear picture of whether reparation demands were ever officially shelved?
>it's a bit hard for me to figure out whether the demand for reparations was ever officially shelved by the WW1 victor
Try reading a book.
>hyperinflation didn't happen
What, 1933 was just like 1923 for Germany
Conservative authoritarian Prussian government with a grudge against France. Communists weren't as powerful as people think, its a result of Nazi Propaganda have people think it was them or the commies.
It would have eventually come to look like West Germany did in the post-war period.
West Germany in the 1950s was basically Weimar 2.0, but without the exaggerated claims of "degeneracy", a dead far-right, and germans knowing to keep their mouth shut about trying to sound like victims
>there was no hyper inflation in weimar germany
>posts unsourced info jpg
>I'm surprised Wikipedia got something wrong
Y-you're just an idiot
>Communists weren't as powerful as people think
>Take half of the votes
>brown shirts and commies used to fight each other on street
Just because the Spartacists got their shit pushed in doesn't mean the communists weren't a threat, unless you want to split hairs between the KPD and SPD
No, the Weimar hyper-inflation ended in 1924 with the introduction of the Rentenmark and the stabilization of the currency. The rest of the Weimar Republic period was without major inflationary tendencies, as was Germany in general until the WW2 period. Far more serious was actually deflation in the early Great Depression.
My friend, I think that you are rather the idiot. I have never said that was not hyper-inflation in the Weimar Republic, I have said rather that there was no hyper-inflation in the Great Depression.
Concerning your complaints over the figure, it stems from figures collected from history.ucsb.edu
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With wikipedia, it is rare that wikipedia straight up gets something completely wrong on the opposite side. Most of the time the problems with wikipedia are misinterpretation, not completely reversing the actual situation.
>split hairs between the KPD and the SDP
What
The SPD sided against the KPD, they destroyed the communists during the revolution and sided with the Prussian elites. How did you come to the conclusion to add the two together and count them both as "communists" when when the SPD had its chance to make Germany a communist state and it crushed the communists.
If you're trying to count the KPD and the SPD together you're an idiot.
In reality:
KPD vote share by German elections:
1928: 10.6%
1930: 13.13%
July 1932: 14.32%
November 1932 16.86%
March 1933: 12.32%
They never even got 17% of the vote.
the french had mistreated the german after WWI
this was still going to be answered in some way
interesting it I thought they got a burst of inflation but I didn't think
>food shortages
>massive reduction in GDP
>no real inflation
Guess Schnact was better than I thought
Yes I am well aware of the SPD teaming up with the freikorps. Same shit, different ass. Marxism was the actual problem.
clemenceau did nothing wrong
another question, would the USA develop into the economic power house it is today without the massive war time economic boost plus being the only major nation with out devistated production capabilites? or would it have simply developed slower? Plus Japan and their situation in the Pacific, would Japan have retained its holdings in Asia? would the CCP have come to power?
Sorry for the derail, but alt. history really gets the noggin spinning
They couldn't be a threat as they were split, throwing the KPD and the SPD together is like throwing a tiger and a jackal together and now saying they're more powerful, when even if one is to say they're the same in concept, they're directly opposed to each other.
This
KPD was largest commie party on western europe and openly flirting with moscow, leader attending the international congress, etc
they probably wouldnt have won 1932 elections but might have won the next, or at least formed a coalition. It's alt history at this point.
The US was already the world's largest economy well before WWII. It just would have been somewhat less dominant.
so either they increase their vote total from below 17% to over 50%,
or they form a coalition with the SPD even though the SPD was involved in massacring them just a decade earlier
hmm
ah, I see. Do you belive Japan would have held on to Korea, Manchuko, and its pacific holdings? Taking logistics into account it os extremly implausable to assume Japan would have expanded further into China, thus allowing the Sino Japan war to wage on in am attempt by Japan to consolidate its colonial holding, Eventually I would also assume this would bring it into war with France, the UK and her commenwealth nations and the US as well leading to the downfall of Japan. If this were to not happen do yoy belive the CCP would have come into power? or would the Nationalists crush the Communists and continue to struggle against the Japanese on the mainland?
please excuse my numerous typos. I seemed to have not proofread my post.
>depression wasn't gonna get worse for germany with nsdap doing creative accounting
also I said they obviously werent gonna win 1932. You dont know what could have happened some years down the line, especially with the krauts. Maybe the nveld or whatever the traditional right wing party fucks up and forces spd into joining forces with kpd, or maybe fear of kpd makes nveld win. Or maybe they bring back the monarchy. I dont fucking know. Germans only had a republic for 14 years at this point and they clearly were prone to buying into memes as our history tells us.
>without doing creative accounting
must put down the bottle for tonite t b h lads
>they're directly opposed to each other
Yet they were both big cats now weren't they? Plus if the nazis hadn't been there to challenge the KPD the SPD surely would've been the radical party to take over Weimar, but because people blamed the socialist governments for the massive decline in culture and living spaces as well as the well documented claims of extreme corruption, they went with the anti-marxists.
Marxism was the problem
>would'd
>anime
To be fair SPD has marxist roots so you never know, it's not like the UK's labour which is mostly an effort led by owenites and fabians.
I reckon there still would be a rise of far right wing nationalism, albeit I see the scenario playing out in a similar scenario to the Spanish civil war between the communists and the fascists.
Germanys economy would rely heavily on these two. Had Rosa Luxemburg gotten her way, you would've likely seen an economy thriving off workers co-ops as opposed to state owned property like the Soviet Union, and if the far right had their way it would have taken a note out of Mussolinis book.
The SPD was an established party that worked within the system through the 1920s and had become a reformist party.
The extremist option isn't available, they already rejected that when they killed the extremists in 1919.
If they did become an extremist communist party and took power, it wouldn't be the original nazism: It would be a civil war, with the military and the freikorps of the right crushing them.
The Nazis also lost votes in the last free election in 1932, so your claim that they went with the anti-marxists is spotty.
The historical evidence is that they were a reformist party in the 1920s, there's no reason for them to change that.
You said they might win in the next election, but this is obviously possible, as they would have to gain 33% extra votes to get a majority when they had been going up by a few percentage points, or join with a coalition of parties who had butchered them a few years ago. Neither would happen.
The German economy was recovering by 1932, as The Wages of Destruction points out.
*obviously impossible
literally no one liked weimar, it always had the stigma of signing versailles and war guilt surrounding it
>extremist option is available
Well for the more hardlined members probably not, but its not been unkown in history for socialists and communists to intermingle amongst each other for a greater goal, as was the case famously for Allende in Chile.
Even with the history of military violence via the freikorps, if people saw the SPD being a sinking ship they would probably throw their hat in with the KPD, even to the cost of their oligarchy, or else they would flee the country.
>nazis lost votes in the last free election in 1932
Barely, and no they ran on massive anti-marxist and jewish slogans for the entire existence of their party.
There would have been another nationalist party.
Germany was screaming for it.
It might have been better, or worse, we can't know, but the situation was primed.
Germany would never have been communist though.