What is the deal with this story...

What is the deal with this story? The media keeps telling me lately that Korea was never part of China but I found this on google.

The system of tributary states that existed centered around the various Chinese dynasties for much of East Asia's history is much better understood as a recognition of China's hegemony over the world as they understood it rather than say a "colony" or "puppet state"'of a sort. At least for Korea's example, the system primarily consisted of Koreans officials bringing yearly gifts, or "tributes" (which were substantial) to the imperial court, which was followed by the Chinese court sending goods of their own to Korea as reward, which were oftentimes even more substantial than the original tributes themselves! The rare time when the imperial court did actually invest itself deep into Korea's political affairs was during the Yuan Dynasty, as the Mongols had repeatedly invaded and defeated the Goryeo dynasty in multiple wars prior. The Yuan Dynasty installed its own offices in Korea's capital to keep a careful watch on the kingdom's court affairs and instituted a system of royal marriages in which Korean kings would marry daughters of Mongol emperors, such that the Korean court would be tied to Beijing both politically and by blood kinship. The names of Korean kings during this period were forced to have the prefix "Chung-" (meaning loyalty) to demonstrate their loyalty to the Yuan court, whereas kings from other periods generally usually used what is called a "temple name," which by tradition was only allowed for emperors but was knowingly ignored by various Korean courts. However, even relations between Korea and Yuan wasn't always so bad, and Korean kings at one point were granted titular fief over the "Kingdom of Shenyang" (modern Liaoning). Back to the topic of Korea as a tributary state, it is useful to understand that diplomacy in historical East Asia generally did not consist of nominally equal sovereign states holding embassies in other nations.

Unified Chinese dynasties were generally preeminent political, economic, cultural, and military superpowers of that "world," and diplomacy operated with implicit and explicit recognition of China as essentially the "center of the world." It was this recognition of primacy in the pecking order that China demanded from Korea and other tributary states, and apart from this, it had little interest in meddling in their political affairs.

Thats too long for a headline bud

korea was invaded by the qing and mongols but not ming. I don't know anything before that though.

but even if you don't want to call the yuan dynasty "china" it would be sort of stupid to not call the qing china. they were the last dynasty of china and everyone accepts that even with the minority ruling class. they picked up a lot of chinese customs moreso than yuan

The whole vassal vs. province status seems a bit of mental gymnastics. Egypt was a vassal of Britain yet is considered part of the British Empire.

>The names of Korean kings during this period were forced to have the prefix "Chung-" (meaning loyalty) to demonstrate their loyalty to the Yuan court
Be korean
get namecucked

China never owned Korea aside from Mongol Yuan dynasty times. Modern Chinese nationalism tends to equate being a tributary state as China owning that particular country. Both Chinese and Westerners misunderstand how the tributary system worked. The most modern example I can think of is EU, Japan, and South Korea being subservience to the United States where it is a mutually beneficial relationship.

t. Chinaman

The "tributary state"argument thing seems like the equivalent of, a thousand years from now the successor of the United States claiming the entire world is it's rightful clay because it had arrangements to base military forces around the world and almost everyone recognized how much stronger we are than them, or claiming we own France because they gave us a nice statue once.

An I off the mark?

>trump said xi told him of history

god damn it, why can't we go back to having more scholarly presidents again?

Chinese wewuzers: yes it was
Korean wewuzers: no it wasn't
Trump: [garbled, self-aggrandizing paraphrase of whoever spoke to him last]
Historians: [long explanation of Korean history that nobody actually cares about]

> a thousand years from now the successor of the United States

what a weird thought

Does france directly pay protection money to the US? No.

Several Chinese dynasties did at one point control and administer parts of Korea, but never was the entire peninsula under Chinese control and the people within it never considered themselves to be Chinese, nor did they consider themselves part of the Chinese Empire. It's more of a culturally and politically symbolic kowtow than full fledged subservience/vassalage with the exception of perhaps the Yuan.

Reading is for nerds and losers

So we can agree that although it was more of a confederacy with small bouts of periodical shows of force/control over specific regions. So in the most pedantic manner, South Korea was part of the ancient chinese-dominated league. As always in history, the answer is both yes and no.

Again, the tribute was often matched by gifts which exceeded the value of the tribute given. It can't be protection money.

The Chinese have a significant stake in maintaining this myth, because it legitimizes their control over regions of the PRC which never belonged to China proper, such as Manchuria, Tibet, and Aksai Chin.

what, you just gonna force manchuria to be given back to the manchus?

The Chinese Empire is not the same as the area that is culturally Chinese. Tibet isn't China either, nor Turkestan, Mongolia or Canton.

>implying anyone would care about a short explanation of Korean "history"
I got as far as turtle ships before my eyes glazed over.

>Mongol Empire
>China

Chinese "empire" isn't China proper.

Yet you wouldn't say Egypt was part of Britain, which is a specific island.

Joseon Korea was a Ming/Qing protectorate while the Goryeo were clearly subservient to the Yuan.

Prior to Goryeo there was no unified Korean identity/polity.

>The Chinese have a significant stake in maintaining this myth
Modern Chinese borders are based on the fact that the PRC is the internationally recognized successors of the Qing.

China proper and Manchuria are anachronistic concepts that were introduced by foreigners.

>Canton
How is this a non Sinitic speaking region?

T. Wang Zhang Wei

The Chinese government is so insecure they keep pushing the 5000 years of history meme as legitimate.

except the Chinese Empire was contiguous for the most part, while
Egypt is neither connected to, nor near, Britain

a better example would be how you wouldn't say Scotland is part of England

Not an argument.

The historical "China proper" was the northern Chinese regions controlled by the Zhou sovereign and his vassals i.e. Zhongguo/Zhongtu/Zhongyuan/Zhongzhou.

Depends how you define China. For most of Chinese history, the state was whatever dynasty ruled the territory of China. There wasn't a "China."

>t. Chinaman
I thought the chinese government banned stuff like Veeky Forums on the internet, what's your story?

Probably from Hong Kong

Also, they don't ban them. We get them all the time on /k/ shilling for their latest piece of shit-tier military tech that's held together with rice glue and duct tape

>The Chinese have a significant stake in maintaining this myth, because it legitimizes their control over regions of the PRC which never belonged to China proper, such as Manchuria, Tibet, and Aksai Chin.

Manchuria and Tibet are different, they were part of the Qing Empire which ROC took over. PRC has the same territorial claim as ROC so nobody questions territorial sovereignty. If the United States experienced a revolution, Hawaii would be claimed by the successor state even if Hawaiians declare themselves independent.

The history of tributary states is a reminder that China achieved hegemony in East Asia and we can do it again. Only ultranationalists believe it means Vietnam or Korea are rightful Chinese territory.

Studying in the United States

What about the Four Commanderies of Han (I know it's not the whole peninsula but still)?

Korean "history" is literally wewuz

The PRC is the legal successor of the Qing Empire which legally controlled Tibet/Manchuria. They assumed all debts and treaties in 1971.

Yeah and all Western history is unbiased and factual.

Pretty much. The West has invented historical methods and objective reasoning.

>A foreign head of state told me a version of history that aggrandizes his country, which frequently engages in propaganda
>Better just take that at face value rather than taking advanage of the massive research and intelligence appparatus I have as president
This planet is doomed.

>What is the deal with this story?

Drumpf is a stupid poopoohead and everything he says is wrong. Disregard him being right.

Depending on your interpretation of the tributary system, he could be considered wrong or right. The operative thing is it's not a very nuanced interpretation, and it's pissing off South Koreans, who are a key ally in the region.

>invented
Lmao

Yeah because the four commanderies, Yuan, and Qing China were never in control of Korea.

To be fair, Korea didn't exist until the 1600's anyways. I understand why the Japs get butthurt at their nationalist wewuzzing youwuzkoreanz

Chinese nationalists use it to justify claims to any new land or ocean.

some claim that that okinawa is rightfully Chinese clay. since the Ryukuan Kingdom once paid tribute to China.

Chinese fisherman get stranded on an island once for a while, hundreds/thousands of years ago, and tell china about it? now that island is chinese clay too.

Yeah and no one else does this, right?

Nationalists are retarded in every country.
NANKING RAPE NEVER HAPPENED
COMFORT WOMEN DID IT WILLINGLY
BATAAN HAPPY TRAILS? BANZAI

Yeah. What's the deal with Yayoi?

Japonic speaking agriculturists from central/southern Korean peninsula.

Toponym glosses show that Jin/Sam Han/Gaya may have had a significant para Japonic speaking population.

>WE WUZ KANGA KONG

It was fully annexed by the Yuan. Though they were a Mongolian dynasty ruling China.

>Yuan Dynasty


A short lived Mongolian Dynasty that both heavy tired to appear Chinese to its Chinese subjects but stone walled any of the Chinese citizens from getting into the upper levels of its governments. As in they would take damn near any well educated foreigner and give them a government job just to keep the scholar gentry well away from their traditional source of power. They also had a lot of non-Chinese direct subjects and non Chinese tributary states. Korea was one of those.

>China never owned Korea aside from Mongol Yuan dynasty times.
>Liaodong used to be part of Korea.
>Han Commanderies.
Cao Pi's wei even did a stint into Korea at one point.

>The whole vassal vs. province status seems a bit of mental gymnastics.
Not really, if you consider the fact that many of the other East Asians the Chinese Empire met used to be smol states or tiny tribes and the whole thing is just a formality that both sides know.

No wonder why a lot of East Asian monarchs couldn't call themselves Emperor until China keeled over in the 1800s.

>No wonder why a lot of East Asian monarchs couldn't call themselves Emperor until China keeled over in the 1800s.
Trump_wrong.jpg.
Well, partly correct.

There's another factor: Language.

The Lingua Franca of East Asia for the longest time has been Chinese. To be specific: classical Chinese. In the Chinese language, a monarch is called a "wang" (王). Any monarch. A hereditary tribal chief heading a confederation is 王, a king is 王, a the Roman emperor is 王.

The problem stems with the Chinese word for emperor, Huangdi (皇帝). The only literal reason that is translated into english as "Emperor" because the guy who invented the title, Qin Shi Huang, emphasized his new, united, China by placing that title above a mere King (王.). But the thing is, that title is a very specific title for a very specific person in the world: the bearer of the Mandate of Heaven and ergo ruler of China.The title itself bears religious connotations on how the Chinese Emperor is a sovereign appointed by heaven itself.

Now when the other East Asian countries got their shit together and had states, most of them (save for bitch Korea) saw their monarchs in the same level as the Chinese emperor and called him emperor as well in their own languages. The problem however is when they use the Classical Chinese language when conversing with one another, they can never refer to their Emperor as "Emperor." Part of the reason is- as stated earlier- they're level as a Chinese tributary state. The other reason is that Huangdi is a specific title. It's like a non-american head of state using the full title of "President of the United States" to refer to himself.

In addition they didn't see highly of each other. The Emperor of Vietnam called the King of Korea and the Emperor of Japan mere monarchs (王.). The King of Korea called the Emperors of Japan and Korea mere monarchs (王.). The Emperor of Japan called the King of Korea and Emperor of Vietnam mere monarchs (王.)

>Liaodong used to be part of Korea.
wew lad

Koreans are retarded wewuzzers if they think Gojoseon wasn't intrusive.

-Han dynasty absorbed Gojoseon
-Tang dynasty occupies Baeje and Gogoryeo,--the furthest extent of continental expansion onto the Korean peninsula
-Finally, the Daehan Minguk has never been part of the PRC or ROC

>implying those aren't shitposting aussies or yuropoors

How new are you?

>nationalists are retarded

tell me MORE

>a monarch is called a "wang"
hahahaha....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...Oh jesus.

Are there any other times in history where one culture had a title that in another language accidentally meant the same as a euphemism for penis?

Doesn't matter, Han Dynasty slapped their shit.

Yuan besides, Han dynasty conquered small part of Korean peninsula, but the control was very short.

t. Korean boi

>Doesn't matter, Han Dynasty slapped their shit.
Gojoseon isn't a native polity,the original Joseon/Chaoxian was situated around northern Hebei/Western Liaoning.

If you want to be technical Wiman Joseon was the first "Chinese" polity that annexed Zhenfan and Lintun.

Closest I can think of is >our independence movement (Peenoy) was called the KKK. Today it's not uncommon to find KKK plastered on the names of restaurants and shit, like you can order a KKK Beef and Rice. People automatically assume it means the independence movement.

Also meet pic related, >our fair share of radical Islamists, the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF).

Or your interpretation of the idea that a chinese dynasty is the continuation of the one that came before it. So yuan was china. qing was also china and they invaded korea as well.

Saying Korea is part of China is like saying Ukraine is part of Russia. Sure, it was a member state of the Soviet Union, but it's not Russian by any metric.

And the russian empire
And the people there are orthodox christian slavs who speak a language mutually intelligible to russian

Memes aside it's pretty russian

>eastern half speaks Russian
>20-30% identify as Russian
>some parts not even transferred from Russia to Ukraine until the 1950's.

Ahhh yesss great example

Because they're lying due to their nationalism mentality.

Korea was already part of China during Han dynasty and it's under the direct control of China back then, not tributary state, at least north Korea peninsula.

You either are lying like Korean or you just lack of basic Chinese history knowledge.
See

T. Chen Ren Zhen

>Appeasing the leader of the second most powerful country on earth without having to actually do anything for it, is being a bad president

Stop whining you fucking loser

The Chinese sound like the Serbs.

>throw stalwart ally of over 60 years who participated in Vietnam with the second most troops and was your greatest bulwark against the reds under the bus

>South Korea.
>Stalwart
Stalwart at not being able to unify their country I guess.

Do you even know what stalwart means?

OK, how about "Poland is a part of Russia" instead?

>throw stalwart ally of over 60 years
Taiwan was a great ally of the U.S but turns out it became meaningless once we realized the Mainland had much more to offer us in terms of geopolitical power. South Korea can't do shit against the Norks except be dead weight because any punitive action we consider has to include the fact that Seol will be leveled. China on the other hand can actually do "something."

>but turns out it became meaningless once we realized the Mainland had much more to offer us in terms of geopolitical power.
Taiwan along with South Korea, Japan, and the Philippines, are all a vital part of the US's strategy to box in and constrain China in the Pacific, to make sure China can never become a naval power. That's why China is so insistent on controlling the South China Sea islands as per its nine dash line, because it sees them as a way to break out of the encirclement.

Since when did everyone in the US become Korean history experts?

Honestly, i would trust that source.

Russian Empire controlled a large amount of Poland as well. Remember at the point of Polish history where it was split between Russia, Germany and Austria-Hungary?

t. kim, grandson of comfort woman and member of the korean catholic church

What? I don't think Koreans would agree with the map I posted.

>Yuan Dynasty
>China's Xi told him of history at summit
>Yuan Dynasty
This is some advanced wewuzing

Ukraine WAS part of Russia for hundreds of years prior to the Soviet Union.

Do American democrats know these things or are they legitimately historically illiterate?

>Catholic
I think you mean Presbyterian, buddy.

Yes, idiot. It's called NATO.

Worth noting that the ancient Japanese claimed relation to the Wu kingdom of southeast China. Obviously not a robust claim, but it's interesting.

>This planet is doomed.
Study history more, you will discover people have always been this silly from the onset. You will be relieved that we accomplished all this in spite of that but also mourn what we could have accomplished were we not so useless.

Mongolia was actually an official part of Qing china, but Stalin told Mao no when it came to unifying China. I suppose that it why China got bitter about the USSR later in the 1960's, but they never challenged the Mongolian clay again after that though.

Nuclear weapons will do that to "rightful clay" claim.s

>Obviously not a robust claim, but it's interesting.
From a genetic/archaeological/historical perspective there are no definite links between the Lower Yangzi and Japanese archipelago.

The Japanese did exactly what the early Wu polity did when they encountered the Chinese,the Wu claimed to be related be the descendants of a cadet branch of the ruling Zhou sovereigns and the Japanese claimed to be descendants of the powerful Yue/Wu polities.

There obviously was some sort of cultural diffusion as the early Japanese resemble the pre Sinitic inhabitants of Southern China(architecture,tattoos,ohaguro etc.) and the Chinese Southern dynasties were important conduits of Sinitic culture(Go-on loanwords,Gofuku etc.)

>what are the Four Commanderies

Holy fuck this is basic history

Dr Pavel, I'm CIA

Lotta sinocentrism for a half-Turkic warlord!